NILIF and pack leadership

 Don't get all mucked up with all the ideas of dominant, pack leader and such. That's not what is important about NILIF. NILIF is about making your dog work for what it wants and by doing so you can get the behaviors that you want out of the dog - like being calm at feeding time instead of jumping around barking and nipping. Or by not charging out the door every time its opened, etc.

jenns

Isn't it the pack leader who controls resources

 

I would seem so. But some people have issues and emotional reactions to the words "pack leader" and "dominant" so many times they discard those phrases in exchange for others that they're more comfortable with. I use the words that feel right to me and I would advise you do the same. If you're not comfortable with the idea of being a "leader" to a "pack" of dogs, and you'd rather think of yourself as a "friendly resource organizer", I say go with that.

Myself, I'm quite comfortable calling myself the "pack leader" or "alpha". I know I am not a dog. That's been established. And I know my babies aren't wolves. That's also clear. But somebody's making and enforcing the rules here or else the dogs would be pooping in the living room and chewing up the furniture. Somebody's controlling the resources here or else the dogs would be living on treats, eating whenever they choose and roaming free. That someone is me, pack leader, mom-lady, treat-giver, poop scooper, play-organizer, feeder, lover, comforter, disciplinarian, trainer... You get the idea. This paragraph describes a philosophy and many words could be used in place of others and still mean the same thing.

NILIF is a TOOL of that philosophy. It simply indicates who controls the resources and it demands behavior for access to those resources. Nothing In Life Is Free.

What you call yourself (as the resource controller, rule-maker and enforcer), is totally up to you. 

JMO... 

Jewlieee

Don't get all mucked up with all the ideas of dominant, pack leader and such.

Agree completely.  All good things come from you: food, toys, walks, affection.  You are teaching the dog patience.  You are showing him (or her) that in order to get what he wants, he must first do something for it, work for it.  You don't want a dog to be jumping around like a crazy fool when its time to eat or its time to go for a walk.  So, he must sit and be calm and patient before he gets his bowl or the leash put on for walks (for examples).

FourIsCompany

That someone is me, pack leader, mom-lady, treat-giver, poop scooper, play-organizer, feeder, lover, comforter, disciplinarian, trainer... You get the idea.

Love it!  We are all of these things; and it sounds so much better than "Alpha".  We are the heart and soul of the family, right!  That's all, no dominance attached, no alpha, beta or omegas...just a family livin and lovin in harmony on a daily basis. 

NILIF is something you do. Pack leader and dominance are explanations & theories. So *one* possible explanation for why NILIF works is that the human is the pack leader. There are alternate theories for why NILIF works, i.e. operant conditioning principles.

I personally tend towards OC descriptors when discussing NILIF, but I am not dismissive of power issues in other areas. I don't know that I call myself the pack leader, but I am definitely the more powerful dog in the house ;). Not because I control resources, but because I control the space around me.

FourIsCompany

I know I am not a dog. That's been established. And I know my babies aren't wolves. That's also clear. But somebody's making and enforcing the rules here or else the dogs would be pooping in the living room and chewing up the furniture. Somebody's controlling the resources here or else the dogs would be living on treats, eating whenever they choose and roaming free. That someone is me, pack leader, mom-lady, treat-giver, poop scooper, play-organizer, feeder, lover, comforter, disciplinarian, trainer... You get the idea.

INCREDIBLY well said!! And with a sense of humor retained!!  Give the lady a treat!!!  (Passing 4IC a chocolate chip cookie .. GOOOD GIRL!!!)

She's absolutely right -- NILIF is about retaining sanity -- it's about giving the dog clear instruction as to how we do it HERE!  Frankly, when someone starts going on and on about terminology and 'resource guarding' (when did getting ratty about someone approaching your bowl become acceptable OR needful of a new term of art?? sheesh) -- it gets so politically correct and uppity I ditch it all. 

There are just some things that have to happen in order for all of us to get along in one house.  But then again, I talk to my dogs just like I talk to the rest of the world.  When I came in last night and Luna was trying to have a barkfest so loud I couldn't hear myself think, the first thing I said to her when I walked in the door was:

 "Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!!!!  WHO died and left *you* in charge, Miz Tunes??? NOT ME!!!! ****YOU**** need to hush!!!!"

She did. 

Lots of words?  Yes -- but she knows the drill.  You sit and get quiet before you get let out of your crate.   (Billy first, Luna next and then Kee)

You sit and get quiet at the back door when Mom finally gets her tired bod back there and she'll let you out!  You sit and STAY quiet when she lets you in and she'll plop supper in front of you. (Billy first, Luna next and then Kee)

Oops -- did I forget to talk with $40 training words?  No ... I don't know any!

NILIF is about habits -- it's about the comfort the dogs take from knowing what's going to happen next. 

Tonight -- After I repeat all of the above (hopefully sans the sarcastic remark to Luna -- she's not usually THAT loud and THAT vocal) they'll all race back in the house after their after-supper-hurrah because I've already told them this morning and will tell them again when I get home that "after supper Billy and Kee have to go to Dr. D's and Luna gets a bone".  They'll be NUTS to race to 'sit' while I let Luna into her crate (she won't even care when we DO leave) and Billy and Kee will barely be able to 'sit' long enough for excitement to get their collars on to GO (going to Dr. D's is somehow elevated to the highest form of entertainment!!).

But "sit" they will.  They'll vibrate with excitement but SIT ... they will. 

It doesn't take the fun out of it -- it actually lets them relax and HAVE fun because there's no pressure of worry.  They *know* what's coming next.

I don't think NILIF has anything to do with "leadership": what it does is help the dog learn self-control, and sets up lines of communication between dog and human- oh, wow, if I want THAT all I have to do is THIS! dogs love NILIF- I think from their point of view they are manipulating the owner and putting the owner's behavior "on cue". Gee, says the dog, if I sit quietly HERE that silly human opens the door. And if I lie down HERE that silly human gives me food- I don't even have to fight her for it, she just gives it to me.

FourIsCompany

jenns

Isn't it the pack leader who controls resources

 

I would seem so. But some people have issues and emotional reactions to the words "pack leader" and "dominant" so many times they discard those phrases in exchange for others that they're more comfortable with. I use the words that feel right to me and I would advise you do the same. If you're not comfortable with the idea of being a "leader" to a "pack" of dogs, and you'd rather think of yourself as a "friendly resource organizer", I say go with that.

Myself, I'm quite comfortable calling myself the "pack leader" or "alpha". I know I am not a dog. That's been established. And I know my babies aren't wolves. That's also clear. But somebody's making and enforcing the rules here or else the dogs would be pooping in the living room and chewing up the furniture. Somebody's controlling the resources here or else the dogs would be living on treats, eating whenever they choose and roaming free. That someone is me, pack leader, mom-lady, treat-giver, poop scooper, play-organizer, feeder, lover, comforter, disciplinarian, trainer... You get the idea. This paragraph describes a philosophy and many words could be used in place of others and still mean the same thing.

NILIF is a TOOL of that philosophy. It simply indicates who controls the resources and it demands behavior for access to those resources. Nothing In Life Is Free.

What you call yourself (as the resource controller, rule-maker and enforcer), is totally up to you. 

JMO... 

I don't usually do this, but I'm quoting your post and giving you a round of applause!

Dogs don't care what we call ourselves. It's more about the "energy" we project, our attitude, posture, demeanor, eye contact, body positioning, tone, scent, who is directing the activities, who sets the boundaries, the action-reaction sequence, etc...

 

I like your list of names to call oneself. I do think of myself as a leader, somewhat. I just don't think of myself as alpha wolf. But I can also understand how others, such as yourself, may use the word, alpha, in your own human concept of leader.

And I agree that it is I who is deciding that this or that behavior is good and the other behavior is not acceptable or desired. And the dog seems to follow us in the practice of NILIF. I also agree some with Mudpuppy, in that it is something of a negotiation and a way for a dog to learn that our way is as rewarding, if not more rewarding, than their way. So, it is something of an irony that while dogs don't necessarily pack, and I am inclined to agree with LCK's supposition of what seems to be hierarchy is actually a sorting of energy levels and stability, we can, in fact, affect their behavior and do so with the various tools that we use. But I think a big part of it is their domestic nature.

OTOH, there are times, such as what Dgriego would talk about, where the dog is locked on hard to a target and almost nothing (I said almost) will break them off of it. And that, I think, may have some relation to breed. She has a dog specifically bred to lock on target, heck or high water, until cued to release.

Irony, it's not just for shirts and slacks.

 

jenns

Ok, so I'm trying to understand NILIF and why we do it and why is supposedly works to keep your dog under control.  So the idea is to show the dog that we control the resources.  Is that to show the dog that we are the pack leader?  I'm reading a lot of posts that are stating that dogs don't have pack leaders and even if they do, we as humans certainly are not the pack leader, or alpha, and that we are not supposed to be dominant over our dogs.  So what exaclty am I teaching my dog by making him sit before I feed him if I'm not teaching him that I am the pack leader?  Isn't it the pack leader who controls resources?  Like who eats what and when and who sleeps where?  What am I trying to teach my dog by not letting him sleep in my bed if it's not that I'm alpha?  So we are not supposed to use the word "dominant" to describe us as relative to our dogs but wouldn't we define dominance as the one who has control of others and makes the others yield to us? 

     In all honesty, I'm not sure where I stand on the pack leader theory. I am inclined to believe that dogs may not percieve us as their pack leader, although with a pack of dogs myself, I can see firsthand there is a need for a certain amount of dominance in addition to training to "keep the peace" as it were. They understand despite their squabbles with the other dogs, when *I* say enough, that means ENOUGH. And it's not ebcause of some innate desire to please - it's about respect & dominance. So again, I'm on the fence with that issue.

     That being said, NILIF does work, not just for difficult dogs but for all dogs in maintaining everyday order. Again, with multiple dogs, we'd have chaos if I didn't use this method.

     "Sit" is helpful to me so that I do not have a pack of ravenous hounds jumping me for treats :) I also have door bolters, and dogs who are fond of scratching up the door before going on the leash. "Sit" is the command, and the reward for being calm and not scratching my door to pieces is the actual opening of the door ... I know it's been argued "sit" has no purpose, but I have found it to be useful. We could analyze my use of this command & argue that it serves no purpose as to the role of pack leader, it simply is a way to obtain a desirable behavior. I also have dogs who are quite reliably trained who we used the clicker method with - and this is not a way to assert dominance at all! Then I've had dogs who scoffed at clicker trianing, and they were dominant dogs, yet not dominant towards me - quite the opposite in fact.

     I've rotated just about every dog I have on the bed at some point in their lives. As pups, they all get to sleep with me to promote bonding, and it must work, becuase I can't even use the toilet without somebody having a stroke   lol Regardless of pack leadership, dominance, etc., this is a good way to bond with a dog. I found that out before I ever heard anyone mention these unheard of notions about letting your dog sleep on your bed, playing tug o war with him, etc. The fact of the matter is that those suggestions worked, and that is why I am unsure if there is such a thing as us being our dog's pack leaders. Sometime's I'm more inclined to think they're not so stupid as to mistake us for hairless dogs.

Anytime you exert your will over another living thing and get compliance you get a very natural human feeling of power and authority.  That is NILIF and that is the human state of mind.  It is a human thing and has nothing to do with the dog.  NILIF exchanges the feelings of anticipation and introduces stress to the dog to force compliance.  Dinner time, dogs gets excited but food is withheld until the dog sits by way of stressing the dog.  I am currently working with a very scared and timid dog.  NILIF would be way too much for this dog and it has me revisiting my rehab and training of all my future foster dogs.  I find that if I just go about and focus on the chore of feeding the dog, that is prepare and then place dish down, and accept the dog's behavior, the behavior associated with anticipation diminishes as the chore becomes more and more routine.  I don't care if the dog sits or twirls a baton before she eats, just want the dog to be calm and it appears the dog will do it on its own.

HoundMusic

jenns

Ok, so I'm trying to understand NILIF and why we do it and why is supposedly works to keep your dog under control.  So the idea is to show the dog that we control the resources.  Is that to show the dog that we are the pack leader?  I'm reading a lot of posts that are stating that dogs don't have pack leaders and even if they do, we as humans certainly are not the pack leader, or alpha, and that we are not supposed to be dominant over our dogs.  So what exaclty am I teaching my dog by making him sit before I feed him if I'm not teaching him that I am the pack leader?  Isn't it the pack leader who controls resources?  Like who eats what and when and who sleeps where?  What am I trying to teach my dog by not letting him sleep in my bed if it's not that I'm alpha?  So we are not supposed to use the word "dominant" to describe us as relative to our dogs but wouldn't we define dominance as the one who has control of others and makes the others yield to us? 

     In all honesty, I'm not sure where I stand on the pack leader theory. I am inclined to believe that dogs may not percieve us as their pack leader, although with a pack of dogs myself, I can see firsthand there is a need for a certain amount of dominance in addition to training to "keep the peace" as it were. They understand despite their squabbles with the other dogs, when *I* say enough, that means ENOUGH. And it's not ebcause of some innate desire to please - it's about respect & dominance. So again, I'm on the fence with that issue.

     That being said, NILIF does work, not just for difficult dogs but for all dogs in maintaining everyday order. Again, with multiple dogs, we'd have chaos if I didn't use this method.

     "Sit" is helpful to me so that I do not have a pack of ravenous hounds jumping me for treats :) I also have door bolters, and dogs who are fond of scratching up the door before going on the leash. "Sit" is the command, and the reward for being calm and not scratching my door to pieces is the actual opening of the door ... I know it's been argued "sit" has no purpose, but I have found it to be useful. We could analyze my use of this command & argue that it serves no purpose as to the role of pack leader, it simply is a way to obtain a desirable behavior. I also have dogs who are quite reliably trained who we used the clicker method with - and this is not a way to assert dominance at all! Then I've had dogs who scoffed at clicker trianing, and they were dominant dogs, yet not dominant towards me - quite the opposite in fact.

     I've rotated just about every dog I have on the bed at some point in their lives. As pups, they all get to sleep with me to promote bonding, and it must work, becuase I can't even use the toilet without somebody having a stroke   lol Regardless of pack leadership, dominance, etc., this is a good way to bond with a dog. I found that out before I ever heard anyone mention these unheard of notions about letting your dog sleep on your bed, playing tug o war with him, etc. The fact of the matter is that those suggestions worked, and that is why I am unsure if there is such a thing as us being our dog's pack leaders. Sometime's I'm more inclined to think they're not so stupid as to mistake us for hairless dogs.

This is pretty much how I feel about the whole dominance/not dominance/NILIF/behavior theory thing.  For me it tends to be a manners thing, especially with two youngish (4 and 1 1/2 year old) dogs.  Sally especially thrives on routine and knowing what I expect of her, and she seems to like the order of NILIF.  Jack is a bit more or a free spirit, but I'm convinced that without NILIF he would not have made it through the "adolescent a-hole" stage without joining a gang of some sort.

I actually found that using an equine version of NILIF is helpful at the barn.  If you want to come out of the stall, you must stand quietly until asked to move.  If you want to continue walking outside, you must walk like a gentleman.  if you want to have the halter taken off to go eat, you must stand quietly while said halter is removed.  I even use "OK" as a release word (for my gelding at least).   

My dog was very UNstressed using the NILIF method because she learned quickly exactly what was expected of her.  She wasn't jumping all around, dancing, pacing, "are you going to give me that now, huh, are you, are you????  She knew if she sat, she'd get it.  No stress, no wondering.  They like routine, so the quicker you can establish that the better, no?

FourIsCompany

But some people have issues and emotional reactions to the words "pack leader" and "dominant" so many times they discard those phrases in exchange for others that they're more comfortable with.

 

My only issue with words like "pack leader" and "dominant" is that I think they're inaccurate. There's nothing emotional about it.

I practice NILIF in a way with Penny, but I've come to think of it more as my prerogative to draw a line as a friend of my dog's. I absolutely let her draw lines as well. We both have to get along, and when something she does is driving me crazy, I draw a line and expect her to toe it. If she won't toe the line, I get to withdraw whatever sweet thing I was going to do with her/give her. Generally speaking,  she gets the message real fast and I don't have to withdraw it indefinitely. However, sometimes, as happens with all friends from time to time, I draw a line, and then she draws another line and there's a shortfall in between. In which case we both storm off and no one gets what they want.

As friends, we respect one another. Neither of us draws a line unless we feel very strongly about it. I feel strongly about a lot more things than Penny does, so I draw more lines, but it doesn't bother her in the least. And yes, she likes to know what I want her to do and sometimes I think she secretly likes it when people (or dogs) draw lines so she can go toe it and know that we're all going to be happy and get on, now.

If I draw a line she doesn't want to toe, but she has to for some reason, then chances are NILIF is not going to work on its own and I'm going to need a whole lot of positive reinforcement somewhere along the way. That's my dog and how she is, anyway.  

I suspect NILIF works the way Mudpuppy described. Thing is, NILIF works on cats, too, and they're not nearly as social. The only difference is they're often not as motivated as dogs are to do something. And yep, I do the same sorts of things with my hare, who is even less social than a cat, and considerably less geared to understanding people than dogs or cats, or any other domestic animal. There are certainly no hierarchies or leaders in his world, and although he has grown quite lazy and spoilt over the years, I'm pretty sure he knows on some level that he doesn't need people. That's what I love about wild animals! But all the same, I draw lines with him and he draws lines with me. As it turns out, he cares more strongly about a lot more things than I do, so he draws more lines than me. That doesn't bother me in the least. Just like Penny, and me, and any other animal, he only draws a line when he feels very strongly. Who can argue with that? It's the way of the world. And just for another contrast, Bonnie, my domestic rabbit, practices NILIF on me more religiously than I do on any of my animals! She witholds affection from me when she doesn't like my behaviour. Like Kit, she draws more lines than me as well, but lately she's stopped drawing lines so much and relaxed on the NILIF front as her relationship with us human slaves has really blossomed. She has taken to stamping whenever she vaguely dislikes anything in her world, though, which seems to be her way of saying she'd teach someone (or something) a lesson if she could be bothered.