NILIF and pack leadership

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    Anytime you exert your will over another living thing and get compliance you get a very natural human feeling of power and authority.  That is NILIF and that is the human state of mind.  It is a human thing and has nothing to do with the dog.

    I would agree with this, too. Even when describing myself. I may feel like a leader but that is because I am viewing what I do through human eyes, plenty of times.

    And certainly, we are working with drives with dogs that can use NILIF.

    In the end, we may not be as much leader as we think we are but are, instead, able to co-exist with our pets through the give and take of NILIF and associated methods. Just as the dog must give and take with each other. "You get that sleeping spot but I get this toy."

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    I absolutely let her draw lines as well.

    And I submit that if you're "letting" her draw the lines, then you're drawing the lines.

    corvus
    If I draw a line she doesn't want to toe

     

    What if she draws a line that you don't want to toe?  

    My point is that we all have a bit of give and take with our dogs. If Jaia doesn't want to bring the frisbee back just now, even when I tell him to, it's cool. It's his toy. We're playing mostly for his enjoyment. So if he doesn't want to bring it, I don't make him. Has he drawn the line? In a way, but I permitted it. If he wanted to stay out all night and did everything he could to refuse to come in the gate, even though he'd be safe out there, I'm NOT going to let him draw that line. Ultimately, I have the deciding vote.

    In other words, I still choose the lines he's allowed to draw. And that doesn't work vice versa. This isn't an equal relationship in terms of who's making and enforcing the rules. 

    ron2
    I may feel like a leader but that is because I am viewing what I do through human eyes

    Well, I hope you view it through human eyes. I do too. I can't possibly say how my dogs view me. The word leader is just a word that I use to describe my position in our group. I am different than all of them. When I walk around, they all follow me. They come to where I am. If I go out, they go out. I'm the one who makes the decisions about resources and other activities. I don't actually feel like a leader. I feel honored to have them around. But I know that, to have compliance, order and structure, I do need to behave in a manner that they respect and are comfortable with. 

    ron2
    In the end, we may not be as much leader as we think we are but are, instead, able to co-exist with our pets through the give and take of NILIF and associated methods. Just as the dog must give and take with each other. "You get that sleeping spot but I get this toy."

     

    This is certainly an option, but I don't make "deals" with my dogs. I am the human, they are dogs. It's not an equal proposition. You can say that they view NILIF as a form of manipulating the human, a form of coexistence, a kind of give and take and peace and love - and it sounds like some kind of a communal living arrangement. But the fact is, the human sets up the conditions in the first place. I say how it's going to be. I say that these particular dogs come to live here. I set the rules and either enforce them or let them go.

    I don't know why people have such a hard time saying that they make the rules. I'd like to hear an example of when the dog made the rules. When was the last time he decided to go to Albertson's and get a bag of pork rinds? When was the last time your dog wanted to crap in the living room and did? Who cleaned it up? Or go to Rally on his own? Or eat a whole bag of dogfood?  Or take off out of the yard for a walk? Or bite you because he wanted something you had. When was the last time he gave you part of his meal? When did he last make sure you went to the doctor? When did he work to make a living so that you could have what you need?

    The human/dog relationship is NOT an equal proposition. They don't move in and say, "I'm staying here from now on." We decide that. What am I missing?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Four, I don't think of myself as the leader of the pack. I think that I have more power relative to my dogs. A lot more power, but I still don't see the organization of our group resulting in one leader.

    Sasha sets rules about her body. The ways in which she is comfortable being touched, etc. I suppose I could not respect those, but that wouldn't make me a leader, it would make me a bully. (Lest anyone misinterpret, if there are ways she needs to be handled that distress her, I enlist her cooperation through treats, desensitization, etc. So I can take her to the vet, clip her nails, yadda.)

    Sasha is my tutor. She's anxious and neurotic, but she is a fantastic communicator and will let you know what you're communicating. The more I pay attention to what she's saying, the better I get with all dogs. The trainer we worked with for Ivan first told me about Sasha's skills, and the more I watch and the more I read - I see how right he was.

    Power in dogs is a funny thing. I watch the antics at the dog park every day. In civilized canine society, a dog gets to control the space right around their body, and whatever items they have. The more powerful the dog, the bigger that space. But even omega dogs have the "right" to be backed off from if they are signaling appeasement. Omega dogs may be convinced to give up a toy or bone, but it isn't yanked from their mouths.  

    The most dominant dogs in a group don't care much about what other dogs are doing, unless it crosses a big boundary. A dominant dog may step in and break up a tense exchange, but it doesn't micromanage. Me, I micromanage the dogs in my house! I have lot's o rules.

    But back to dogs and rules ... Sasha would bite me if I pressed her rules too far. She doesn't want to bite me. But if she felt threatened - if I sent out strong doggie signals that intended her harm - she's anxious enough to take me at my word. I think that when we respect our dogs limitations, we are respecting their rules. When we work with an anxious dog to increase their tolerance, we are respecting their rules. (Not respecting their rules would be to expect tolerance, period, because that's what we want).  

    • Gold Top Dog

    jenns
    Ok, so I'm trying to understand NILIF and why we do it and why is supposedly works to keep your dog under control.  So the idea is to show the dog that we control the resources.  Is that to show the dog that we are the pack leader?  I'm reading a lot of posts that are stating that dogs don't have pack leaders and even if they do, we as humans certainly are not the pack leader, or alpha, and that we are not supposed to be dominant over our dogs.  So what exaclty am I teaching my dog by making him sit before I feed him if I'm not teaching him that I am the pack leader?  Isn't it the pack leader who controls resources?  Like who eats what and when and who sleeps where?  What am I trying to teach my dog by not letting him sleep in my bed if it's not that I'm alpha?  So we are not supposed to use the word "dominant" to describe us as relative to our dogs but wouldn't we define dominance as the one who has control of others and makes the others yield to us?

    Some points to consider that might be helpful in understanding this:

    NILIF originated with William Campbell in his book Behavior Problems in Dogs. The main thesis of that book was that dominance is not necessary in dog training, in fact Campbell says it's detrimental. So in my view anyone who says that NILIF is about dominance and being the pack leader needs to go back to the source.

    In wild wolf packs (where the idea of "being the pack leader" and "showing dominance over dogs" comes from) no one wolf controls all the resources for the group. There is no pack leader doling out food, telling everyone where to sleep, or anything remotely close to what we've been mistakenly taught is natural in dogs. David Mech, the world's leading expert on wild wolves, says that it's better to think of the pack as a family unit, with the children following their parents' initiative. He also says dominance displays are rare and only take place between the mama and papa wolf over how to disburse food to the young. The female generally wins these conflicts by acting in a non-threatening ("submissive";) manner. If she wins by being submissive, that means the male loses by acting dominant. Right? So what does that say about dominance in general? In my article, "Is Your Dog Dominant, or Just Feeling Anxious?" I go into more detail about this. But the thesis of that article is that whenever we see what we've been taught are dominant behaviors in dogs, what we're really looking at is an anxious and stressed animal. (For example, the pharmological "cure" for "dominance" aggression is some form of anti-anxietal.)

    Looking at pack formation from the dog's genetic background, they're predators at heart. This is clearly visible in their behavior. Even though they get their food in a bowl, most dogs exhibit predatory motor patterns: they'll kill a toy, they'll chase a squirrel, they'll stalk the cat, etc. Predators have a lot of built-in aggression. You can't succeed in nature as a predator if you're not ready to kill something before you eat it, in fact with large prey animals it would be dangerous to try. And group predators are rare in nature. Most familes kick the young'uns out of 'the nest' when they reach adolescence. There are exceptions, the primary one being wolves and other members of the canine family. (Lions form groups as well, but while they hunt large prey, a single lion could kill most of the animals this feline species preys on by acting alone.) And while it's true that most canines are capable of surviving, if necessary, on plant matter, small prey animals, insects, and by scavenging, those are secondary choices. Big game animals with lots of meat on their bones are the most attractive form of prey for wolves and other canines. So they form packs to hunt big game.

    Meanwhile, being a predator at heart means you've got a lot of aggression. And when you have a group of predators, living together, that aggression has to be sublimated in some way. For many years it was thought that wolves sublimated their tension through hierarchical behaviors. But the wolves being studied were captive wolves, culled from various sources, most of whom didn't know one another, and didn't have any familial bonds. On top of that, none of the captive wolves that gave us this hiearchical view of canine society were able to use their predatory energy as nature intended: to hunt and kill large prey animals. So while in a sense the wolves being studied actually were sublimating some of their predatory energy into hierarchical behaviors, ie, intra-pack aggression (all hierarchical behaviors are aggressive in some way), this is not natural. In fact for wolves the most natural way for them to reduce their internal tension is to hunt large prey together.

    In her paper, "The Social Organization of the Domesticated Dog," Alexandra Semyonova makes a very important distinction about how aggression is defined in dog society: using an uninhibited bite on another animal or human (unless it's part of a hunting activity). Semyonova also makes the point that in dog society when a dog breaks the non-aggression rule, he's ostracized from the group. Everyone keeps their distance, no one will play with him, etc.

    This brings us back to what I think is the purpose of NILIF: teaching a dog that he's broken this non-aggression rule. This means that NILIF should only be reserved for dogs whose social instincts have gone way out of whack, so to speak. This is the canine equivalent to the kind of "tough love" used on aggressive, drug-addicted teenagers, and shouldn't be administered for minor infractions. Tough love is only for tough cases.

    Why does NILIF work? The operant conditioning explanation put forth by some here is probably the closest to the truth. However, I think that while oc (and behaviorism in general) satisfactorily explains a lot about learning and training, etc., it falls short when it comes to solving severe behavioral problems. That's partly because I see all behavior as the result of a dog trying to reduce some internal emotional or nervous tension. What are "resources" but things that a dog wants, or in severe cases, "thinks" he needs? If you have a want or a need, you'll experience some form of inner tension and stress until that want or need is satisfied, correct? If a dog learns he can succeed in getting his needs met by acting aggressively, he's not going to stop acting that way unless and until someone bigger and stronger and a lot more aggressive than he is comes along and really kicks his ass (which will have numerous negative behavioral repercussions later on), or until he's put in a position so that he can't get ANYTHING he needs or wants, EVER, UNDER ANY CONDITIONS, unless he acts calm first (meaning he's not acting on his internal tension and stress).

    So looked at in that light, NILIF works via a conditioning process to teach a dog that acting calm, not acting on his stress and tension, is what gets him what he wants: He can't come out of his crate unless he acts calm. He can't eat unless he acts calm. He can't go outside unless he acts calm. He can't have a bone unless he acts calm. All these rules that Campbell invented have the effect, not of showing the dog that you're the "pack leader" or that you "control the resources," but, on the simplest level, that calm behavior produces satisfaction. So while operant conditioning doesn't quite get at the heart of why NILIF works, it provides us with a better explanation than dominance.

    Anyway, that's how I see it.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    I don't know why people have such a hard time saying that they make the rules. I'd like to hear an example of when the dog made the rules.

    Dog savvy people do make the rules, there is no doubt.  But, there are people out there that are either new to dogs or just don't have a clue how to live with dogs.

    I can think of a few scenarios when a dog makes the rules with non-savvy folks:  A person calls their dog to them...the dog refuses and heads the other way.  Dog's rule. 

    Dog has something undesireable in their mouth.  Person goes after dog to get it; dog runs away and chase ensues.  Dog's rule.  LOL

    A person asks their dog to sit, the dog doesn't.  Dog's rule.

    Dog potties in the house.  Person doesn't see it happen and cleans it up later.  Dog's rule.

    Wouldn't you agree?  Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    CoBuHe
    Wouldn't you agree? 

     

    Absolutely. I agree. Thank you.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Am I letting my dog draw lines or does she let me draw lines? What's the difference? We let each other draw lines because we respect each other.  It's not an equal relationship because I have the gift of foresight and opposable thumbs. But that doesn't mean that every line she draws is a line I allow her to draw any more than every line I draw is a line she allows me to draw. Maybe it would be easier to understand if you think of my hare, who is very unlike a dog and draws lines all the time. He makes rules because he cares more than I. If I had my way, he'd let me put a leash on him and we'd go walking and he'd let everyone we met pat him. If I had my way, he wouldn't ever pee in anything other than his litter tray. If I had my way, he would never put holes in my things when I leave them in his reach. But I don't have my way because he's the one that cares more about these things and I respect his limitations. All the same, I can get him to go back into his cage when he doesn't want to by caring more about it than him. If I were some kind of rules nazi and cared very much that all my animals obeyed every rule I invented, then they would obey them and probably be miserable, and I probably wouldn't have anything other than dogs living with me.

    My dog doesn't make rules about things like crapping and going places on her own because she doesn't care about those things. She makes rules about things she cares about, which is exactly what I do. She makes the rule that she will grumble at Jill when Jill turns up with her rope toy and if I don't like it, she'll go somewhere else. She makes the rule that she will bark incessantly when she is excited. She makes the rule that she will sniff this interesting thing on the ground when we're out walking regardless of whether I want her to keep walking and leave it. Those are the kinds of rules she makes. She would also like to make the rule that she eats everything edible she finds on the ground, but I care more about that one than she does sometimes, so she eats fast before I get a chance to enforce my rule.

    It all comes down to who cares. I take her to the vet because I care very much that she go, and I care more that she go than she cares that she doesn't go. Just. But what's the difference between me making a rule I care very much about and her making a rule she cares very much about? Just because I respect her rule doesn't mean I have magnanimously let her make it, and just because she respects my rule doesn't mean she HASN'T magnanimously let me make it. I'm inclined to think we both respect each other's rules purely so we get along, though.

    When two individuals come to understandings and submit to the will of one or the other, I think of it as a see-saw. If I'm on one end and I care a lot, then things start to go my way, but if my dog is on the other and she doesn't care that much, then bam, I get what I want. But if she does care a lot and wants to do something else instead, then we teeter back and forth until one of us decides giving in isn't going to kill us and then the other gets their way. Whether I decide giving in isn't going to kill me or Penny decides giving in isn't going to kill her has little to do with leadership, but a fair bit to do with individual personalities. And me being the human and the one that dictates where she doesn't crap doesn't hold much water when she cares a good deal about something. I'd imagine toilet training would be a world of pain if dogs actually very much wanted to go where we didn't want them to go.

    • Gold Top Dog

    NILIF, although claimed to be "invented" by a particular person, is actually a very simple and universal concept almost anyone can use...regardless of their preferred methods and beliefs. Even old William Koehler had his own version of this concept.

    Some use NILIF to achieve a specific behavior before rewarding the dog with super yummy treats or something else it wants. Some use it to allow the dog to think it is in charge and manipulating the owner (oranges). Others use it to acheive a frame of mind (calm), as CM and LCK do...even though their belief systems regarding "why" it works are apples (CM) vs bananas (LCK).

    Good and usefull concept regardless of the human agendas, IMO.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Angelique
    NILIF, although claimed to be "invented" by a particular person, is actually a very simple and universal concept almost anyone can use...regardless of their preferred methods and beliefs. Even old William Koehler had his own version of this concept.

    William Campbell never "claimed to have invented" NILIF, he simply originated it, pure and simple. It may be based on a simple and universal concept (whatever that means), but it didn't exist as a training exercise with a specific set of rules before Campbell put it forth in his first book. As for Koehler, I'd like to know what his "version" of the exercise was like, exactly, and when he began using it. Also, Koehler didn't care for the idea of "being the pack leader" at all, even though his approach was very punitive, and his philosophy was that learning takes place through consequences, mostly of the negative variety. One of his explanations for why his training methods work so well was "If a dog wants to keep his head attached to his body, he'll learn not to pull and walk next to you."

    Angelique
    Others use it to acheive a frame of mind (calm), as CM and LCK do...even though their belief systems regarding "why" it works are apples (CM) vs bananas (LCK).

     

    Once again, what I'm saying is not part of a belief system; it's a fact of nature. There's no such thing as a pack leader.It's a complete myth. I do agree, though, that those who think that dogs have an instinct to follow or obey the "pack leader," do so because of a belief system, not because that's an actual reality. In that light, I'd say that what you describe above is more like the difference make-believe apples that only exist in some peoples' minds, and real, juicy, healthy apples full of vitamins and minerals and fructose and fiber.

    LCK 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mmmmm, fiber.

    IMOAE:

    Unless you're a dog and can tell us what exists inside of a dog's mind, an opinion is only an opinion, not a fact.

    Anyone who spends an over-proportionate amount of time leveling the playing field rather than educating on the benefits of their preferred method, has a weak team.

    The more words it takes to make a point, the weaker the point.

    Fiction writers are not the same as technical writers.

    Even though an evangelical approach may be a bit of an obsticle, I still enjoy bananas in my fruit salad.

    (Darn, where is the word processing dept (and spell check) when I need them!)

     

    Lee, 

    All that aside, I still find your concepts interesting and usefull.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    CoBuHe

    I can think of a few scenarios when a dog makes the rules with non-savvy folks:  A person calls their dog to them...the dog refuses and heads the other way.  Dog's rule. 

    Dog has something undesireable in their mouth.  Person goes after dog to get it; dog runs away and chase ensues.  Dog's rule.  LOL

    A person asks their dog to sit, the dog doesn't.  Dog's rule.

    Dog potties in the house.  Person doesn't see it happen and cleans it up later.  Dog's rule.

    Wouldn't you agree?  Smile

     

    I dont, thats just a dog that has not been properly trained, it would be rule if the dog establishes the rule and the owner HAS to complain with it like it or not, is like if i go to a supermarket and i steal the money at gunpoint, not because i was able to get away with it that means its now a rule

    • Gold Top Dog

    That was my point...an untrained dog in control of its untrained people.  Smile  Interesting example you offer though.

    • Gold Top Dog

    a big flaw in the "NILIF" = pack leadership idea is that dogs don't generally GIVE resources to other dogs. So why would my giving a dog a meal in exchange for sitting cause the dog to think I'm his leader?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Mudpuppy, they most certiantly do provide food, shelter adn protection to the lower memebers of the pack. Thus teh hgiher ranking members get first dibbs and doel out what is left over to the younger memebers. In turn, younger memebers test their position by challenging other pack members for food and resources, proof of this is found in behavorial issues like food guarding and seperation anxiety

     

    I think of NILIF as a basic guideline to help my dogs know there limits and as a tool to help me keep my dogs safe and in good manners. I dont look to NILIF as a tool to lord over my dogs like a mad person and I think the extent to which we use it depends on teh dog, the breed and the home situation. When it was just Rory and I, I wasnt as strict but know that I am married, have another dog and a lot of neicesd adn nephews over I find NILIF is just one step up from regular obediance that helps me maintain a peaceful household. When you start labeleing it as dominance and/or with negative terms it really makes it seem more like a punishment then a healthy way to live.

    For example NILIF suggests a dog should never walk through a gate or door before the owner. I cant tell you how many times this has come in handy and has kept my dogs from charging into the street or out a car door.

    Nilif states that a dog must sit a certain distance away while you prepare food and the dog should not advance until you've set it down, walked away and give the ok command. I think this has been helpful to combat food aggression and the excitement during dinner time. I weigh 100lbs, I have to 60lbs pit bulls.....the last thing I need is them jumping around or on me like crazy dogs, LOL.

     I will admit that I throw around the term dominance and alpha role a bit carelessely and can easily see how it makes NILIF seem like a nazi regimn, LOL but in reality it has been extremely helpful!

    • Gold Top Dog

    mudpuppy
    a big flaw in the "NILIF" = pack leadership idea is that dogs don't generally GIVE resources to other dogs. So why would my giving a dog a meal in exchange for sitting cause the dog to think I'm his leader?

    You raise a good point. Dogs, unlike the wild canids, do not spend a long time with mom and dad, and mom and dad don't hunt and bring back food. Humans separate the pups from the mom at 4 weeks for pet stores and 10 weeks for legit breeders, and then that dog goes to a new home with a human. If dogs were to spend as long with mom and dad as wolves do, and hunted for food, as wolves do, then it could be argued that the parent dogs provide food, other than mom giving milk when they are little. Which is not to say that a loose or feral dog would not be able to do such things.

    At the same time, dogs are dependent on us and are willing to do things we ask for the resources we give.