NILIF and pack leadership

Lee Charles Kelley

In other words fear shows itself in two basic forms, fight or flight (there's also "freeze" but that's another matter). It's only with dogs who express their fear through constant overt aggression where NILIF is warranted. I don't see any beneficial application of NILIF for timid or panicky dogs.

This may be silly but I found it a little interesting on the use of the word "or".  I agree that fear shows itself by flight or fight (note I inverted the order) provided that the "or" is a logical OR, meaning both reactions are available.  From my observations when introducting new fosters to the pack and also the reactions of the scared and timid dog, depending on the duration of the stress, the dog will first do flight and then do fight. 

I agree with the statement "I don't see any beneficial application of NILIF for timid or panicky dogs" provided "or" is a logical AND.  I think NILIF is ok to use on a timid dog because the dog is working on its coping process while the conjunction of timid and panicky will result in flight or fight (or is logical).

I am sure Ron2 will correct me if I got it wrong.

DPU

Lee Charles Kelley

In other words fear shows itself in two basic forms, fight or flight (there's also "freeze" but that's another matter). It's only with dogs who express their fear through constant overt aggression where NILIF is warranted. I don't see any beneficial application of NILIF for timid or panicky dogs.

This may be silly but I found it a little interesting on the use of the word "or".  I agree that fear shows itself by flight or fight (note I inverted the order) provided that the "or" is a logical OR, meaning both reactions are available.  From my observations when introducting new fosters to the pack and also the reactions of the scared and timid dog, depending on the duration of the stress, the dog will first do flight and then do fight. 

That is not all dogs though.  Our barn owner has a dog that is fearful, but nearly always uses the "fight" response.  She nearly always has the option to flee, as she is loose most of the time (and knows that she is allowed to wander the property at will).  Actually, every time I have seen her lash out, she has not been leashed, confined, or restrained at all.  The general rule around BB is that unless you are her family, you do not put any part of your body near her that you would like back in good condition.  She has an official bite record of one bite, but has bitten (to varying degrees of severity) nearly every employees kid that comes to the barn regularly, the owner's friend's kid, one of the boarders (who is an adult) and snapped at nearly every one of the barn employees at some point.  As far as I know, she had the option of fleeing in nearly every bite situation and was loose for every one of the bites that happened at the barn.

With dogs, she takes a different approach.  The first time she met Jack he tried to do the butt sniffing thing and though he had not touched her, she began to scream.  Jack was totally taken aback, looked at me for direction, and I called him away.  IDK, maybe she has discovered that while humans tend to recoil from an aggressive act, dogs will often return fire, so it's safer (in her mind) to deal with scary situations with dogs differently than with people....  

I have had to deal with one horse with impaired vision that preferred fight to flight (and horses nearly would always rather run).  She would regularly lower her head, bare her teeth and charge, spin and prepare to kick, etc.   

When I first got Tia from the shelter, she would sit constantly before doing just about anything. But the sits were more like appeasement gestures. She was pretty messed up, insecure, and mistrustful of humans when I got her. A lot of shaking, submissive pees, and dialated pupils. So, someone had obviously done "some form" of NILIF with her, yet did a lot of things "wrong" in how they interacted with her.

With her, I didn't use any NILIF in the beginning. My main focus was on just spending time with her and teaching her to relax and play. She didn't even understand playful body language, at first.

I think how you interact with each dog, which methods/pholosophies/techniques you use, and when you use them, really does depend on the dog, even with NILIF.

No, sorry, but NILIF is not used to teach or train commands to the dog.  I used it for focus, attention, stress reduction, teaching patience. 

I hope you answer my prior question about what it is that your dogs do until they decide for you that they aren't too stressed to do what they should be doing? 

I'm not meaning to come off as rude or anything like that but this just doesn't make sense.  This nonsense about the dog being stressed.  If the protocol is being used correctly and used for the dogs it's supposed to be used for which are dogs like Willow who are pretty difficult it's a gentle, way to get the point of leadership across.  I would of been bitten the first week if it was stressing her out the way you are trying to imply that it does. 

DPU

This may be silly but I found it a little interesting on the use of the word "or".  I agree that fear shows itself by flight or fight (note I inverted the order) provided that the "or" is a logical OR, meaning both reactions are available.  From my observations when introducting new fosters to the pack and also the reactions of the scared and timid dog, depending on the duration of the stress, the dog will first do flight and then do fight. 

Well, the way I see it each time a dog fights or flees, that's a whole new response even if it happens within seconds of the other one happening. Kit always flees, at least, I thought he always did until he broke his leg and couldn't flee so well. Then he started beating up on the cat when she got in his space, despite usually being on very good terms with the cat. For him, not being able to choose flight makes him feel more vulnerable than he normally does. One time I tried to give him a flea treatment and he didn't want my hand near his neck. He tried to run away at first, but he was in his cage and couldn't actually get away from me. He then turned around and grunted at me and gave my hand a quick boxing. That, I believe, was 2 different responses to 2 different situations. The first time he tries to flee. The situation does actually change in his mind, because after fleeing, my hand is still coming at him. Then he fights. The failure of his flight to alleviate his anxiety leads him to fight. Were I to back off for a few moments with my hand, the flight response would alleviate his anxiety to a degree, and when my hand comes back, he's likely to flee again. This is kinda hard to explain. the way I see it, it's a tree of responses, sort of. When my hand comes in, he can fight or flee, he makes his choice. The action of fleeing immediately makes him feel less stressed and he stops. My hand is coming at him again. His stress mounts, but even though it lessened after he fled the first time, it didn't go away all together, so my hand adds to what stress was still there, and that's what pushes him into a flight or fight response for the second time in 5 seconds. This time he chooses fight seeing as flight didn't alleviate his stress much last time. The two incidents are related, but separate. When the flight or fight response is triggered, the choices are mutually exclusive and whatever the choice, the stress level likely drops instantly.

There are times it gets muddier, though. On the weekend I was holding a small, marsupial shrew-like animal that we had trapped. It switched from trying to struggle free to chomping viciously on fingers and back to struggling back and forth and back and forth too quick for a human to be able to counter. I don't know how these critter's minds work, but fast might be one word for it, and I suspect they are geared to switch strategies with lightning speed. I would be surprised if they thought about it. They just strugglebitestrugglebitebite until they get free. If they don't get free in the first minute or two, they settle down and alternate between trying to bite and trying to wriggle free much slower, and with periods where they just sit there looking frightened. I guess you'd call that flooding. I think there's limited capacity to bite and struggle to escape in the same instant. Especially when you're so small that hanging off someone's finger means you can't hit the ground and run. I've been told that they're much easier to handle if you get them to bite something, because then they stop struggling as long as they have their teeth locked on something.

Personally, I wouldn't use NILIF at least until I had a good strong relationship with an animal. That comes first. From there I'd assess it case by case. 

Personally, I wouldn't use NILIF at least until I had a good strong relationship with an animal.

It's supposed to be used to help develop a strong relationship with the animal.   

willowchow

NILIF is not used to teach or train commands to the dog.  I used it for focus, attention, stress reduction, teaching patience

Yep...plain and simple.  I don't want my young dog to be in crazy mode and jump around when I want to feed her or put a leash on her.  Its merely teaching the dog to be patient.  In my case, they don't appear to be stressed at all.

They know I'm the leader, the mama, the caretaker, their keeper of all things good.    Whatever you want to call it. 

I have use some components of NILIF, mainly with Kenya. Honestly, it has more been for checks and balances on myself than a training method for the dog.  I use it with the goal of creating a simple, consistent, predictable environment for the dog, so it's basically a method for ME to learn to be clear, concise, and consistent.  Kenya came to me as a very nervous, timid dog.  She needs quite a bit of structure in order to be confident.  For us, NILIF simply means things like feeding her at the same time, taking her out to potty at the same time, being consistent with "rules" like what toys she has full access to, what furniture she can be on, etc.  Like Willowchow says, NILIF for us has removed the stress an unpredictable environment can cause a timid dog and has strengthened our bond by setting clear and consistent boundaries and expectations.  That goes both ways.  Kenya has the expectation to be fed X-amount at Y and Z times each day, she can expect to be taken out to potty in the morning, afternoon, evening, and before bed, etc.  That means she cannot bark at me and expect me to feed her whenever she wants.  I get home from work at 5 and she knows she is being fed then.  NILIF has trained me, not her; what it does for her is develop our routine and communicate the expectations.  I've trained myself to feed her consistently, developed a schedule of taking her out to potty, set expectations and boundaries about special food (bones) and toys.  To me, "free" and "freedom" involve inconsistency and uncertainty, which can be stressful for some dogs.  Just because I use structure and consistency does not mean I am withholding things from my dog, only that she is getting them on a routine basis.  I've also used NILIF to constantly reward Kenya for good manners.  She now has total access within the house and full access to her toys and bones at all times.  We still have to maintain structured feeding, walking, pottying, etc.  Now if she had problems resource guarding, I would not be leaving marrow bones around the house.  If she had problems destroying furniture, she would not have access to certain rooms.

Thank you all for your responses.  It seems to be more of a matter of semantics and terminology than anything else.  It is nice to learn everyone's take on these subjects, because sometimes, just when I think I understand dog behavior and training I find out that I am more confused than ever!

CoBuHe

They know I'm the leader, the mama, the caretaker, their keeper of all things good.    Whatever you want to call it. 

Unless you want to call it "alpha".   LOL

jenns

It seems to be more of a matter of semantics and terminology than anything else.

Boy, you got that right!   What I do is - listen to everyone, accept what makes sense, reject what sounds 'off' and trust my own judgment. That's about the best ANY of us can do. This is a great thread!

willowchow

No, sorry, but NILIF is not used to teach or train commands to the dog.  I used it for focus, attention, stress reduction, teaching patience. 

NILIF bears no resemblance to boot camp.   You're not issuing a steady stream of commands, demanding the dog sign a loyalty oath, or uber-training. 

Say you get a puppy. You prepare dinner. BOUNCEBOUNCEBOUNCE. Puppy pauses, all four feet on the ground - dinner time!  Puppy learns what behavior is expected in order to get dinner. With a dog who already knows a command, NILIF can incorporate that, but NILIF itself is not how you train a new command based behavior. NILIF, at its most basic, is "Before you get what you want, you are expected to do something."

Attention. Patience. Focus.

And these things become habits. Sasha and Eko both go and sit or lay down while I make breakfast. I don't say a word. It has simply become our routine. I never taught Eko to specifically go and sit at the edge of the kitchen while I prepare his food. What I did teach is that the patient puppy gets to eat, and the obnoxious puppy will slow things down.  He decides what the patient puppy does while I make breakfast.

With Sasha, if I wanted, I could have her do specific obedience commands that she knows. She's not on a strict NILIF routine. Heck, neither is Eko. Neither needs that degree of focus.  

Jenns--A lot of it is a matter of teminology as far as using leader or alpha and that sort of thing.  But, NILIF has a specific purpose and I just wanted to encourage you to go to some other sites to get a better idea of that. I'm not saying I use it 100% correctly all the time(especially at this point) but there is a right way and there is a point to it that I'm not sure everyone is doing correctly here.  And, I've read your posts and I honestly think it would help you out.

I agree with Jenns, that we are getting mixed up and confused with terminology. Words like "dominance and alpha" make a lot of people think of NILIF as negative and that we are trying to make our dogs groveling submissive creatures. but in reality its the same concept as raising a child. If they want dessert they must eat dinner first, if they want to go to camp they must get grades, its for reward and safety is all. So again I'll re-post what I first wrote because it seems as if a lot of you are reading way too much into NILIF (well what we think of NILIF). In no way are we asking anything demeaning of our dogs and in NO WAY are we stressing them out. We set up expecatations for them to easily suceed................

I think of NILIF as a basic guideline to help my dogs know there limits and as a tool to help me keep my dogs safe and in good manners. I dont look to NILIF as a tool to lord over my dogs like a mad person and I think the extent to which we use it depends on the dog, the breed and the home situation. When it was just Rory and I, I wasnt as strict but know that I am married, have another dog and a lot of neicesd adn nephews over I find NILIF is just one step up from regular obediance that helps me maintain a peaceful household. When you start labeleing it as dominance and/or with negative terms it really makes it seem more like a punishment then a healthy way to live.

For example NILIF suggests a dog should never walk through a gate or door before the owner. I cant tell you how many times this has come in handy and has kept my dogs from charging into the street or out a car door.

Nilif states that a dog must sit a certain distance away while you prepare food and the dog should not advance until you've set it down, walked away and give the ok command. I think this has been helpful to combat food aggression and the excitement during dinner time. I weigh 100lbs, I have to 60lbs pit bulls.....the last thing I need is them jumping around or on me like crazy dogs, LOL.

 I will admit that I throw around the term dominance and alpha role a bit carelessely and can easily see how it makes NILIF seem like a nazi regimn, LOL but in reality it has been extremely helpful!

Dog_ma

NILIF bears no resemblance to boot camp.   You're not issuing a steady stream of commands, demanding the dog sign a loyalty oath, or uber-training. 

Say you get a puppy. You prepare dinner. BOUNCEBOUNCEBOUNCE. Puppy pauses, all four feet on the ground - dinner time!  Puppy learns what behavior is expected in order to get dinner. With a dog who already knows a command, NILIF can incorporate that, but NILIF itself is not how you train a new command based behavior. NILIF, at its most basic, is "Before you get what you want, you are expected to do something."

Attention. Patience. Focus.

YES EXACTLY!!!!!!!

For example NILIF suggests a dog should never walk through a gate or door before the owner. I cant tell you how many times this has come in handy and has kept my dogs from charging into the street or out a car door.

Nilif states that a dog must sit a certain distance away while you prepare food and the dog should not advance until you've set it down, walked away and give the ok command. .

This is "dominance voodoo rituals", it's not NILIF. NILIF is very simple: if you want this from me, you have to do that. It's a very flexible program- it doesn't "insist" on anything. You can if you wish apply it to only certain things, like the dog must be sitting quietly or the dog doesn't get fed (doesn't matter where the dog sits, or even whether the dog sits, downs, or just is calm,  that's up to you), or you can apply it to everything- dog must sit calmly before the door gets opened (doesn't matter to NILIF whether the dog goes out first or the human goes out first), dog must be calm before the leash gets attached, etc. NILIF teaches dogs self-control and makes them much easier to live with. It lays that foundation of manners and ability to be calm that we all want in our dogs. It helps owners avoid accidently rewarding crazed behaviors and unpleasant behaviors- guess what happens when owners plunk the food down, not thinking about the fact the puppy is barking and bouncing- guess what, puppy is now more likely to bark and bounce in future.