Prong Collars - dicuss

Kim_MacMillan

Can problems arise? Yes. And it is because of those problems that have arisen, that people have had to deal with, that also shapes the way they think about certain tools. Especially when they are out there for any and all people to buy, with no special training needed, where they can just slap it on and away they go. Especially when there are other ways to deal with issues, for the majority of people. Personally I feel that people should always be striving to find the least invasive tool necessary, before choosing to use a more aversive one. Some people do, yes, and I'm not saying anyone who uses a prong is automatically jumping to the hammer instead of the feather, but the point is there are far too many folks who are jumping for the hammer, without even considering the possibility of trying something a little less aversive first, when the options are out there.

Kim,

I really like your post, especially this part.  I know of people who go to trainers or to classes and within the first week or two their dogs are put on prongs and that becomes their default collar.  Yes the dog may be big and the dog may pull, but I would like to think that trainers would attempt to train the dog to stop pulling with non-aversive techniques first.  And I shudder at the person who just goes to the pet store and buys a prong and uses it.

I have a good friend who is 89 years old.  She is 5' tall, weighs about 100 lbs and has shoulder issues.  In addition she works full time, and lives alone.  She owns two good-sized labs and walks them at least 2 miles almost every day.  If she went to certain trainers, I know they would have advised her to put them on prongs due to her size and age.  She would never do it.  Even after she fell and broke her wrist walking them both around the neighborhood on-leash.  Like me she mainly walks off-leash, if she has to walk on-leash she is smart and walks them one at a time now.  And she uses treats, big time.  She trained her dogs using only positive methods, gives them lots of exercise, uses her brain to know what she can handle, and uses tools (treats) so that she doesn't have to use aversives to live with her dogs.  I have to admit, her dogs are rather easy although they are crazy Labs, but when I look at Florence and she can do it, I wonder if most other people can't do the same thing.

I've gotta wonder which is worse....a properly fitted and placed prong with no corrections AS A TRAINING TOOL, SHORT TERM, or that horrid jerking and screaming?

well, I'd pick the prong. Hard jerks on any kind of collar, flat-buckle, whatever, seem so likely to cause cumulative neck damage.  Dogs very rarely choose to give themselves hard jerks into a prong. I'd much rather see people walking dogs in prongs than see people being dragged around by gagging dogs in buckle collars.

GoldenAC

I am not an expert at clicker training, but I don't think that beginning clicker training has to "exicte" the dog to a state where they would move in a way to cause themselves pain.  You can start by loading the clicker when the dog is in a comfortable position.  If the dog is laying down, you can sit right in front of the dog or right next to the dog, you hand the dog the treat, they don't have to move.  Then if you are working on a watch the dog can still be in a comfortable position.  You can train a dog to settle in a comfortable position.  You can train a dog not to move or distort its body with a clicker.

Have you ever been to the first day of a Clicker Training class?  I'll have to video tape it for you.  Your advise is very sound and it does take some forethought and planning when training a special needs dog.  No training method (Clicker-P or reward-correction or using the prong collar) HAS to excite a dog or cause an excitable reaction, But my point was, if you are only given a dog in front of you and you only know the dog has HD, then you don't know the "comfortable position" for sure or what movements from that "comfortable position" would cause pain.  Only time and observation from the dog's natural behavior would educate you.  Only when you are educated can the appropiate training method be selected.  With this particular dog, I am preceding cautiously until I know the dog better.

Agreed.  And that's exactly my point.  There are some people that are NEVER going to go any further than using a prong to keep their dogs from pulling, and while I don't agree with that, I can't change the world.  I'd far rather see a dog being walked on a prong than choking himself on a flat collar and causing heaven knows what kind of long term damage.

DPU

GoldenAC

I am not an expert at clicker training, but I don't think that beginning clicker training has to "exicte" the dog to a state where they would move in a way to cause themselves pain.  You can start by loading the clicker when the dog is in a comfortable position.  If the dog is laying down, you can sit right in front of the dog or right next to the dog, you hand the dog the treat, they don't have to move.  Then if you are working on a watch the dog can still be in a comfortable position.  You can train a dog to settle in a comfortable position.  You can train a dog not to move or distort its body with a clicker.

Have you ever been to the first day of a Clicker Training class?  I'll have to video tape it for you.  Your advise is very sound and it does take some forethought and planning when training a special needs dog.  No training method (Clicker-P or reward-correction or using the prong collar) HAS to excite a dog or cause an excitable reaction, But my point was, if you are only given a dog in front of you and you only know the dog has HD, then you don't know the "comfortable position" for sure or what movements from that "comfortable position" would cause pain.  Only time and observation from the dog's natural behavior would educate you.  Only when you are educated can the appropiate training method be selected.  With this particular dog, I am preceding cautiously until I know the dog better.

I'm happy to let you videotape my class;-)  You will not find anyone's dog out of control, and you will not find anyone C/T'ing a dog for being in an unnatural position.  Presumably, since most training centers require proof of vaccination/health, all dogs would have at least seen a vet within a reasonable time before coming to class.  I'm sorry, but you are inventing problems that generally don't exist if you go to a knowledgeable trainer Trainers can usually see obvious and serious flaws in a dog's gait that would make them suspicious enough to question the owner about the dog's status.  Do you have the same concern for a dog that might get a kick or a tap, CM style?  Or the dog whose owner is being asked to gait around the hall in a traditional class, issuing corrections on a slip collar?  Of all the methods, frankly, this is the one that at least lets the dog decide if he is in too much pain to participate, and doesn't punish him for not participating.  It's also the one that is very good at teaching self control and attention right from the get go.  So, I really don't understand why you are having such an issue with it, other than simply to disagree with me because you perceive me as some sort of clicker nazi, which I am not.  I really don't care what methods you choose, since I don't have to live with your dogs, you do.  But, at least if we are going to discuss clicker training, let's do it rationally and with the facts straight.  But, again, I don't know how a prong collar thread got to be an anti-clicker thread.  Prongs are not evil, unless handled by someone who is not familiar with their proper use, but IMO there are a lot of such people out there.  Still, I think they are a much more humane device than a slip collar, or even a buckle collar if the dog is constantly out at the end of the leading choking and sputtering.

spiritdogs

I'm happy to let you videotape my class;-)  You will not find anyone's dog out of control, and you will not find anyone C/T'ing a dog for being in an unnatural position.  Presumably, since most training centers require proof of vaccination/health, all dogs would have at least seen a vet within a reasonable time before coming to class.  I'm sorry, but you are inventing problems that generally don't exist if you go to a knowledgeable trainer Trainers can usually see obvious and serious flaws in a dog's gait that would make them suspicious enough to question the owner about the dog's status.  Do you have the same concern for a dog that might get a kick or a tap, CM style?  Or the dog whose owner is being asked to gait around the hall in a traditional class, issuing corrections on a slip collar?  Of all the methods, frankly, this is the one that at least lets the dog decide if he is in too much pain to participate, and doesn't punish him for not participating.  It's also the one that is very good at teaching self control and attention right from the get go.  So, I really don't understand why you are having such an issue with it, other than simply to disagree with me because you perceive me as some sort of clicker nazi, which I am not.  I really don't care what methods you choose, since I don't have to live with your dogs, you do.  But, at least if we are going to discuss clicker training, let's do it rationally and with the facts straight.

Ok, I give up.  You win.  Clicker training does not put the dog in a happy state or make the dog excited.   No worries at all for a dog owner whose dog has hip displashia.  Proceed as normal and ignore the dog's pain.  No pain, no gain, right?  Thats the message you are sending, such a sorry message.

Spiritdogs, it is obvious to me just from your past couple of post that you have no experience teaching a stage 2 HD dog in basic obedience.  I don't either but I have enough sense not to put a prong collar on the dog or click throw rewards at the dog to get the dog to perform obedience behaviors.   As usually, I will figure this out on my own and be creative and possibly come up with a new teaching technique. 

DPU

Clicker training does not put the dog in a happy state or make the dog excited.  

There's no doubt that clicker teaching puts most dogs in a happy mood, but it doesn't necessarily make the dogs frantically excited or move in "unnatural" ways. Really, the clicker's not that magical! *G* If you reinforce excited and frantic, you get excited and frantic. When you reinforce quiet and calm, you get quiet and calm.

All I can say about my class experience is that on the first day of class, regardless of training method, all dogs acted the same way. They were usually exuberant, happy, and excited to be around other dogs (for "normal dog" classes). And I've been to clicker classes, classes where the trainer handed out choke chains, and classes that used a combination of P+ and R+. Regardless of the class, the dogs always acted the same way in the beginning, so asking whether people have ever seen a clicker class in the beginning is a bit unrealistic. I know in our clicker classes, the dogs calmed down within the first night.

DPU

No worries at all for a dog owner whose dog has hip displashia. 

I agree with this (although you didn't actually mean it, but I'll agree anyhow, since it's out there to comment on). No worries at all for a dog that has HD, having HD doesn't automatically make you a bad candidate for clicker work, in fact it can make things much more easy on the dog since you aren't forcing the into certain positions with your hands or a collar - the dog can take up a position in any way it is comfortable, deciding for itself what it likes and doesn't like.

I don't make the clicker out to be anything it's not. It's whatever you make it, and if you make a frantic dog in pain, then that's human error, if you simply teach the dog that a click marks a behaviour, then you have used a clicker correctly. I'm amazed at how much "power" is being given to a little plastic box. Honestly, it's a behaviour marker, nothing more. Try not to give it too much more credit than that and perhaps less people will be turned off of it. *G* What the dog ends up doing is a result of what the human teaches, not what the little plastic clicker whispers. You get what you reinfroce, that's what you have to remember.

DPU

spiritdogs

I'm happy to let you videotape my class;-)  You will not find anyone's dog out of control, and you will not find anyone C/T'ing a dog for being in an unnatural position.  Presumably, since most training centers require proof of vaccination/health, all dogs would have at least seen a vet within a reasonable time before coming to class.  I'm sorry, but you are inventing problems that generally don't exist if you go to a knowledgeable trainer Trainers can usually see obvious and serious flaws in a dog's gait that would make them suspicious enough to question the owner about the dog's status.  Do you have the same concern for a dog that might get a kick or a tap, CM style?  Or the dog whose owner is being asked to gait around the hall in a traditional class, issuing corrections on a slip collar?  Of all the methods, frankly, this is the one that at least lets the dog decide if he is in too much pain to participate, and doesn't punish him for not participating.  It's also the one that is very good at teaching self control and attention right from the get go.  So, I really don't understand why you are having such an issue with it, other than simply to disagree with me because you perceive me as some sort of clicker nazi, which I am not.  I really don't care what methods you choose, since I don't have to live with your dogs, you do.  But, at least if we are going to discuss clicker training, let's do it rationally and with the facts straight.

Ok, I give up.  You win.  Clicker training does not put the dog in a happy state or make the dog excited.   No worries at all for a dog owner whose dog has hip displashia.  Proceed as normal and ignore the dog's pain.  No pain, no gain, right?  Thats the message you are sending, such a sorry message.

Spiritdogs, it is obvious to me just from your past couple of post that you have no experience teaching a stage 2 HD dog in basic obedience.  I don't either but I have enough sense not to put a prong collar on the dog or click throw rewards at the dog to get the dog to perform obedience behaviors.   As usually, I will figure this out on my own and be creative and possibly come up with a new teaching technique. 

OK, now you are becoming ridiculous, and not at all hearing what I am saying.  You are your dog's trainer and advocate, and if you know a dog has HD, it's your duty and obligation to make your instructor aware of that.  No clicker trainer I know would ignore a dog's pain and ask for behavior that the dog is not capable of, or would not be safe doing.  Frankly, if your dog is so dysplastic that some light clicker training would cause it grave pain and injury, that is a dog that needs rehabilitation, surgery or euthanasia.   Mildly dysplastic dogs are often put on a regimen of moderate exercise to build up the musculature surrounding those hips, as one of my students is currently having to do with her dog.  The dog can do a lot of exercises and has no problem with her mom using a clicker to elicit behavior.  If you have an excitable dog, it is also your duty to see that the doesn't overdo, but training method has little to do with that, and you can control the circumstances a lot if you know what you're doing, or are under good supervision from someone who does.  You can call me many things, but when you posit that I am unconcerned about the welfare of any dog under my tutelage or care, you have crossed a line that, in my opinion, you should not cross with anyone on this forum.  And, you are mistaken.  I have taught dogs with concomitant stage 2 HD AND elbow problems to boot - with clicker training and no injury to the dog, who will soon take his therapy dog exam.

Again, you are assuming that there is prior knowledge about the dog.  My goal is to prevent pain from happening not test as to what would trigger the pain and then try and control the trigger.  Hence my hesitation in going forward with training.    Oh and teaching and practicing are two different things when it comes to experience.   Real experience is derived from practicing.

Sigh.

What part of "Prong Collars, discuss" is so hard to understand?

I'm going to guess that everyone is in agreement that a dog should never EVER be allowed to lunge at the end of a lead with a prong?

Mudpuppy, you've said you wouldn't use a prong.  Will you share what you would do with a dog like Thor who everything else had totally failed with?  I don't know how we got to that point, although there were a number of contributing factors that I do recognize as part of the problem, and I'm not real sure how I DID finally get through to him the accepted way to walk, but I do know that I was determined that he wasn't going to wear that darned thing for long.

Nor can I explain how I've trained my other dogs not to pull.....I do credit the drag line and offlead a lot for that, but it's kind of like cooking....it isn't that I don't want to share my recipes...I just don't actually HAVE any!  I do a lot of things by the seat of my pants and following my gut.

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 The below text was written by an internet friend of mine who sums up  what i think perfectly,i agree 100% with everything written here:

"I would hate to own a dog who was fear/pain/punishment trained, they are totally different in their personality.

But some people would hate to own a dog who is positively trained.

I think positive training is for people who are interested in what a dog is, how they think and preserving and utilising their canine assets. They see dog ownership as a privilege and their role is to serve the dog through training and handling the dog in a canine relevant way. These are the dogs who actually do exceptionally well in agility/obedience competitions.

Pain inflicting type of punishment training suits people who want human companionship, interested in the dog to serve ones own companionship requirements which is basically traditional dog ownership.

Most people adopt some level of balance.

AS for the actual electric shock and prong collar.

IMO many people want quick fix solutions. They get a pup and they want it to behave straight away like an adult dog. The electric shock and prong collar are to cater for the desires of such people.  Developed in the USA I think where they have created a dog ownership problem by legislation against their so called cherished  freedoms and liberty of their population. Many cities and states forbid the walking of dogs of lead even in parks.  So how do you walk an energetic dog on lead who can never be let off to have a run?   Working hours over there are high as is the dog population. Dogs are crated for long hours while owners are at work and then are expected to walk nicely round the block in the evening on a lead...how can this be achieved?  ....buzzz yelp! What a good dog! Many housing associations have restrictions on the heights and type of garden barrier, fronts are open plan, backs restricted to 4ft high chain fencing. How do you stop a dog barking at the neighbours dog or jumping the fence?  Many don't even have a fence so how do you deal with that?  Supervise the dog? no, you just go fit an  invisible fence! Buzzz yelp! problem solved.

These are not training tools! They are created not with the interest of the dog at heart but for quick fix convenience, and extreme training solutions in a world that is increasingly incompatible with man and mans best friend! And it is this direction we in the UK will be following if we do not make the effort to preserve our liberty"

Edie

Developed in the USA I think where they have created a dog ownership problem by legislation against their so called cherished  freedoms and liberty of their population. 

I respect your right to your own opinion, but at least keep the facts straight.

"While many people think that the prong collar is a trendy new gadget for the modern dog owner, the fact is that it predates the much more commonly used choke chain. Prong type collars appear in photographs and sketches in European training literature from the turn of the century."

The Herm Sprenger brand prongs are probably the safest (how they are made) and strongest and that's a German company. 

As for the issues of HOAs, leash laws, long working hours....I'm inclined to agree, but I don't see the relevance to prong collars.  There's pros and cons everywhere.  Personally I don't think I could ever live in a place that blanket bans certain breeds and requires others to be muzzled and on restricted leads in public.

 I would disagree with much of your post, but have not got the energy to verbalize my disagrements, not to mention most of them are off topic as is much of your post.

 So I will ageee to disagree but will say I think it is a stretch to say that someone using a prong is not interested in this: 

Edie

I think positive training is for people who are interested in what a dog is, how they think and preserving and utilising their canine assets. They see dog ownership as a privilege and their role is to serve the dog through training and handling the dog in a canine relevant way. These are the dogs who actually do exceptionally well in agility/obedience competitions.

Edie

 The below text was written by an internet friend of mine who sums up  what i think perfectly,i agree 100% with everything written here:

"I would hate to own a dog who was fear/pain/punishment trained, they are totally different in their personality.

But some people would hate to own a dog who is positively trained.

I think positive training is for people who are interested in what a dog is, how they think and preserving and utilising their canine assets. They see dog ownership as a privilege and their role is to serve the dog through training and handling the dog in a canine relevant way. These are the dogs who actually do exceptionally well in agility/obedience competitions.

Pain inflicting type of punishment training suits people who want human companionship, interested in the dog to serve ones own companionship requirements which is basically traditional dog ownership.

This is just bad-mannered and delusive. Not to mention OT.