glenmar
If we are going to ban tools, I'd far rather see the choker banned than the prong. The chocker is so easily abused and can so easily cause damage to the dog. At least with a prong, the pressure is evenly distributed.
I agree. I would far rather see chokes banned before prongs, as I do feel they are a lot more dangerous. I don't know how many people I've seen use them in every incorrect way possible, and that goes from JQP to dog show handler to dog trainer. Ugh. Although personally I don't think there is a "correct" way to collar pop a dog, but I agree this tool is indeed worse than a prong, and the risk for damage is far greater.
glenmar
And, I don't believe that this thread was intended to be "your way is wrong and mine is right". I think the intent was to have an open discussion about the use of prongs without a lot of the emotional stuff.
I hope nobody feels that way, although obviously some people do. I don't think it's anybody's intention to outright make another person feel bad. I know I don't, when I speak of prongs, it's simply based from experience and knowledge. And I think sometimes people need to step back and acknowledge why people feel the way they do in the other continuum. There are people out there who have seen really, really bad outcomes from the use of pain-illiciting tools. And this includes both from incorrect use and correct use. It's not just the incorrect use that can cause problems. Some of us have seen psychological problems, physical injuries, and developing aggression from these tools. No, it does not mean it causes problems in all dogs. No, that does not mean I/we are accusing you of being a bad owner. No, that does not mean your dog will necessarily experience those same issues. But when people have seen problems from such a tool, you have to understand why they feel hat way as well, and it's not just to cause trouble or to offend, to call you a bad person, not at all, it's precisely because of what they have experienced, seen, learned, and know about learning and motivation and behaviour. While you may not agree with statements like "I think prongs are inappropriate because______", instead of becoming defensive on your own, or rather offensive, sit back and think why do they feel this way, and even if you don't agree, try to understand the position of the poster, and the reasoning behind their posting.
Does it cause problems in all dogs? Of course not (although one can argue that any P has some level of fallout, even benign P-), and I don't think I've seen anybody make that generalization, ever. Do lots of dogs work happily with them? Sure, many dogs can get past the temporary aversive properties of the collar, especially those who work on a self-correcting method - where the dog controls the punishment, stress is usually lowered indeed. But is there a risk? Yes. Can problems arise? Yes. And it is because of those problems that have arisen, that people have had to deal with, that also shapes the way they think about certain tools. Especially when they are out there for any and all people to buy, with no special training needed, where they can just slap it on and away they go. Especially when there are other ways to deal with issues, for the majority of people. Personally I feel that people should always be striving to find the least invasive tool necessary, before choosing to use a more aversive one. Some people do, yes, and I'm not saying anyone who uses a prong is automatically jumping to the hammer instead of the feather, but the point is there are far too many folks who are jumping for the hammer, without even considering the possibility of trying something a little less aversive first, when the options are out there. For some it's lack of knowledge, for others it's the whole "I've used them forever so why should I change" attitude. I would understand that lack of knowledge long before I understood the simple fact that it's what they've always used, despite the fact that there may be something out there they may like better (or maybe not, but they won't know unless they try), or they learn that it is possible to teach a dog to do X without the use of aversives. Some people honestly do not realize that you can teach a dog to do something (and in effect, not to do something else), without needing aversive tools. If you choose to continue on the same path, that is your perogative, but at least this way you've done so with an educated background rather than simply ignoring what may be available.
When I read about people using prongs, I don't get all defensive and uproar about it, or think that it's an attack on my feelings towards it. I think some people need to look at in the same light and realize that some people have very valid reasons why they discuss the prong in the way that they do. While I don't like their use, I don't jump on people for it, I simply try to explain calmly why this is so. Without getting specific, there are some folks here who have explained their use in which it may not be what I would do, but it was probably as low-risk as it gets and the dog likely had little to no fallout whatsoever. And to be honest there have been some replies that caused my skin to crawl a little bit, because of what is to me a clearly wrong way to use a prong. The problem is people can't even being to agree on how a prong is used properly, and the way it is used today by a large number of folks is totally against the intentions of the person(s) who created it to begin with, and would be considered a very wrong way to use a prong. A prong was never intended to be used in the way a choke collar was, but it has become used in the same way by some people.
Anyhow, it's just some food for though. Take it, leave it, doesn't matter, just figured I'd put it out there.