Prong Collars - dicuss

Corvus I might be crazy enough to own six gsds, but I'm not nuts!  No way I'd be taking that much "dog power" into town if anyone ever did the slightest bit of pulling.  Shoot, I'd be a hockey puck for them to drag down the street!  Yikes!  And OUCH at the mere thought of it!

Don't worry Glenda, my image of you walking 6 GSDs has never involved any pulling! Last time we met a GSD, though, it chased Penny at full pelt around a large field, her yelping all the way! If I didn't know you, I certainly would be a little nervous seeing that much GSD coming my way.   I bet you're known as "The Lady With 6 German Shepherds - But They're Good Dogs" in your home town. My mother is "The Lady With 3 Dogs - But They're All Nice". She says she'll have to get another when I take Penny so she can keep the name. 

Dog_ma

I don't think arguing that they don't work is the best way to promote alternatives, because it isn't true and lessens the credibility of the person making the claim.

Absolutely! I see it all the time. Corrections work. The prong collar works great (so far). 

Dog_ma, I'm glad to see you are getting past your "clicker aversion". I would love to see Eko working. I'm having fun clicking with Jaia. I wrote this recently:

FourIsCompany

my experiences here (with people associated with clicker training) have done more to make me want to smash my clickers with a big hammer and melt them into a burning black, plastic, stinky, heap than to report here any success I might experience. But since I'm not going to do anything to "show" or "prove" anything to anyone, I'll just keep them intact and use them when I feel like it...

And I STILL managed to get beyond it, so I know you can, too! All of us can if we want to. Maybe we should have a support group?

Corvus, more likely "that crazy lady with all those BIGGGGG dogs!"  But, I might be thought of by some as "the lady with all those well behaved dogs".  I'm thinking most think I'm crazy....and that's ok.  I'm in good company.

FourIsCompany

Maybe we should have a support group?

 Would that be "People who want to try clickers but have negative vibes"

dgriego

FourIsCompany

Maybe we should have a support group?

 

 Would that be "People who want to try clickers but have negative vibes"

 

Go to the training section. Cranky minds think alike, it seems! Too funny. 

dgriego

Great post Pwca

and Dogma that is about how I feel, I have tried clickers to some extent and have several books but there is something negative in my mind regarding clicker training since joining this forum. I to am working to overcome this.

I agree here.  Consideration should be given to the owner that they know their dog and how their dog responds bests.  The responsibility for the dog's safety, well being, and social interaction with people and other animals is the owners responsibility.  I have learned a lot on this forum about training methods and I am open to methods that fit the dog that is before me.  I have large residence dogs and continuously bring in multiple shelter dogs into my home.  Each dog is different and responds differently depending on the behavior modification being worked on. 

I have a foster with hip displastia.  Do I want to get her all excited and active by clicker treating with food?  Do I want to teach the dog the sit command using corrections?  No, to both questions.  Does she need basic obedience, Yes.   Do I need to show and teach her a different way to get to the down position.  Yes, I do little play, touch, and affection. 

I have a DA dog in the house that is ok with the original pack that she was first introduced to.  My own unique way of introducing a dog to my pack.  Any new dog that comes here, she attempts to kill.  For this dog, I manage and use the environment to get her and the new dog acclimated to each.  This is a problem beyond me so I am getting help from a behaviorist.  If the behaviorist says prong, then I will use it.  If the behaviorist says muzzle, I will use it.  Distractions, alpha roll...whatever it takes.  But...no matter what the behaviorist says, there will be a broom close by. 

I have an SA hound that I committed to using only the most gentliest form of training and got professional help to instruct me.  No prong, no choker, no jerking, no touching.  Clicker was my choice but it fell way short and had a negative psyche effect on the dog. 

I have a lab foster who is very vocal and growls.  I know its playing and harmless but prospective adopters are turned off by it. 

For those of us that have real situations that we are dealing with and want to discuss, why not just promote your preferred training method and let it stand on it own.  I do have several sizes of the prong collar.  It was recommended to me by the agility trainer to better control the dog during class while on lead. I have never used it.

 For my dogs,if it causes pain or restriction i wont use it! This includes prongs,e-collars,choker chains,crates. Prongs and e-collars and to an extent choke chains should NOT be sold to the general public,and should be banned altogether IMO!

I am the most training illiterate person probably on this thread,training,obedience trials etc etc hold no interest whatsoever for me,yet somehow i have managed to "train" all of my dogs to walk reliably off leash.So if i can do it,with a myriad of different breeds,than anyone can.

I don't like prong collars and actually I'm not a fan of collars around a dogs neck in general. 

I didn't notice much difference in the pulling of dogs I've walked with them either.  They seem to not be too phased by the pinching unless someone is really tugging at it to get it to pinch harder.  And, that's just not something I'm going to do to my dog or the dogs I walk. 

DPU

Do I want to get her all excited and active by clicker treating with food?

That would only occur if you allowed/taught your dogs to be active. My dogs are only active when I want them to be, such as agility and things that require a lot of movement, and they are calm when I want them to be - teaching stationary behaviours. It's all in how you teach it really, and what you choose to reinforce. :-)

DPU

If the behaviorist says muzzle, I will use it.  Distractions, alpha roll...whatever it takes.  But...no matter what the behaviorist says, there will be a broom close by. 

I'm just curious, would you always do whatever your behaviourist said, without question? Regardless of what they say? Would you ever second-guess a recommendation or look into it for yourself? Or gather more than one opinion?

DPU

For those of us that have real situations that we are dealing with and want to discuss, why not just promote your preferred training method and let it stand on it own. 

Which is all I (I can only speak for myself) ever attempt to do. :-)

Edie - If you're that training ignorant,what makes you feel like you are qualified to make that judgement? Spaying and neutering cause pain. So do vaccinations, and Lizzie would like you to know that nail trims are, in her opinion, a form of mutiliation that should never be inflicted on dogs under any circumtances. That's just SUCH a broad statement that it's ludicrous.

-- 

I've been using clicker training since 1999 with my very first dog. I've found that there are some things it is VERy good for and others, not so good. I really think it's only in the last 3-4 years that cilcker training has hit 'critical mass' and we're staring to get enough knowlegable practitioners to see the real benefits. I think clicker training is AMAZING in what it can do, especially with thinky dogs. But it is FAR from the only way that works.

Edie

 For my dogs,if it causes pain or restriction i wont use it! This includes prongs,e-collars,choker chains,crates. Prongs and e-collars and to an extent choke chains should NOT be sold to the general public,and should be banned altogether IMO!

I am the most training illiterate person probably on this thread,training,obedience trials etc etc hold no interest whatsoever for me,yet somehow i have managed to "train" all of my dogs to walk reliably off leash.So if i can do it,with a myriad of different breeds,than anyone can.

I have a foster with hip displastia.  Do I want to get her all excited and active by clicker treating with food? 

Did you know that you can train a dog to exhibit calm behavior by using clicker training?????  

If we are going to ban tools, I'd far rather see the choker banned than the prong.  The chocker is so easily abused and can so easily cause damage to the dog.  At least with a prong, the pressure is evenly distributed.

I don't clicker train simply because I'm too darned clumsy to do it right.  But, I do understand where you folks are coming from when you get bad vibes about it.  That's exactly the way I feel about CM......that he's being shoved down my throat and I don't want to see or hear anything about him because of the almost rabid supporters.

To return to topic however, I'd rather see a dog being trained on a properly fitted, properly placed prong collar than dragging his people around or being allowed to create havoc in public because they don't train him at all.

Once again....a prong is a training tool.  It does not replace training.  Its presence IS an aversive and all but the dumbest dog is going to realize that when he pulls, the prong tightens and it doesn't feel good.  It is meant to be a self correcting tool, not an instrument of torture.  And a properly used prong can allow the person to GET the dogs attention in order to do the training so that the prong can go back in the toolbox or in the trash.

And, I don't believe that this thread was intended to be "your way is wrong and mine is right".  I think the intent was to have an open discussion about the use of prongs without a lot of the emotional stuff.

spiritdogs

I have a foster with hip displastia.  Do I want to get her all excited and active by clicker treating with food? 

.....No, you'd rather slap a prong collar on the dog and just believe all the hype about clickers being baaaaad. 

That post is shameful and a serious accusation.   The lowest of lows of any comment I have seen on this forum.

David, if you feel that way, wouldn't it be better to report it than to react to it?