Prong Collars - dicuss

Yup, I use prong collars. I start out using flat collars and rewards. When the dog has a solid foundation based on positive reinforcement, I begin using a prong collar for corrections. I let the dog self-correct initially, so that he learns what the collar feels like and he learns that if he doesn't lunge, he won't get corrected by it. That also allows me to sit back and assess his response. I do use a prong as my first correction collar choice, I find it's the easiest to use, gives a sharp clear correction that generally doesn't need to be repeated more than once or twice, and is safer than some of the other options. It does cause some discomfort - it wouldn't be an aversive if it didn't. But pain sensitivities vary, and it is not painful to all dogs. I have put the collar on various parts of my arms, legs and neck and felt it myself and I did not feel anything painful. Just some pressure.

Another reason I use the prong collar as my first choice of correction collars on my own dogs is because with my back problems as well as weakness in my hands, I don't have a chance of controlling a high-drive, hard-headed dog in much of anything else, except an ecollar. I switched Morgan to a check choke because she is very thin skinned, so the prong collar was irritating her neck - even just wearing one without a leash attached - and she's also mild mannered enough to not need anything stronger than that.

I use leash pops with a prong collar, and they are highly effective at stopping behaviors. I use them to train, in conjunction with positive reinforcement, and after that, the dog continues to wear a prong collar, in case something unexpected occurs where I need to use it.

I also like the safe aspects of the prong collar - they will break apart if they get caught on something, which I have personally witnessed. The dog was completely unharmed, the collar was in four pieces and bent to the point of being unusable.

If corrections and harsh treatment are so inefficient, why are people still using them? Why are people titling young, happy-working, fast dogs to high levels (Recently watched a traditionally trained 2 YO OTCH BC. Very good worker, soft dog, very traditional trainer.)? Because pain DOES work.

Does that mean it's the best way to train? No.  But saying it's ineffective doesn't fly.

 One of my biggest beefs with the clicker community is that the apparently need to justfy their training style by calling others abusive or ineffective. We've got some all-clicker OTChs and plenty of MACHs now. Let the results speak for themselves.

 I personally think GLs are borderline abusive. I think they're downright dangrous on long-backed dogs. I *do* think they have their place- I think they're excellent for reactive or DA dogs with whom you need instant control of their head. But this topic is about prongs.

 I have never seen a dog cry out from a leash pop on a prong. I've never seen a dog cringe or act unhappy when the prong collar comes out of a trainer's pocket, and I've never seen one run from a trainer rather than have it put on. My boys will push and shove to be the one in front of me if I get a prong out. This may be because the group I train with who uses them uses them right (in conjunction with +reinforcers, mostly, although some people use them just as a management tool). (I've seen terrified dogs on a choke and completely shut down dogs on a GL, but neither of those on a prong.) 

Do all dogs need them? No. Neither do all handlers- and there's people I'veworked with that I wouldn't trust with a prong. (Heck, I don't trust my agility instructor with Lizzie's leash regardless of how she's attached to it!) But you could say the same thing about a clicker, food treats, tennis balls, or tug toys- pretty much every motivator, positive and negative in the book.

I do agree they're dangerous if left on a dog unattended. I think that's true of ANY kind of collar short of a breakaway collar, although the risk is obviously higher with metal collars and highest with chokes.

 I've used a progn on Indy in the past (during his teenaged phase when he would pull to the point of choking when he got fixated on something- typically prey), and I've used one on Mal when my balance was bad and I couldn't deal with ANY pulling. I doubt I will ever need to use one on Lizzie- there's a big difference between a 15 pound dog and a 35 pound dog with a low center of gravity and a ton of muscle). I *will* use one again on Mal though, when he starts his public acess training, because it *will* require corrections and I would MUCh rather give a silent subtle correction than a verbal one in public.
 

 I would very much like to see a discussion of progns take place without the words 'inhumane', 'abusive', 'cruel' or 'painful' being used. But it doesn't seem like this is a debate that can happen without personal attacks.

My dogs don't have bunches of loose skin on their necks.  My dogs don't have loose skin anywhere on their bodies.  They are nothing but solid, lean muscle.

And, I do not feel that I'm treating my dogs any less as dogs because I refuse to use a training tool that LOOKS brutal without knowing first hand how it feels.  On bare skin, they HURT.

 Badrap?  Ya stepped all over it, but I knew what you were trying to say.  However, JQP doesn't necessarily see a german shepherd the same way most dog folks will.  And even the most dog savvy person in the world might hesitate seeing a woman my size walking down the streets of the village with almost 500 lbs of dog!

spiritdogs

 It should be used as a self correcting collar, NOT as a collar that the handler pops to issue a correction.  That is basically inhumane, and if you have a dog that you think you must do that to, I submit that the dog is ill trained, and you should revisit the training, not punish the dog for disobeying what he clearly doesn't know in the first place.  I know - what do you do if he DOES know?  Well, then, you ask yourself if he really knows in THAT circumstance.  Dogs often do well in the living room, at the training center, in the yard, down the road, BUT then you take them to the Petco parking lot (or name your own distracting circumstance) and they're out of control.  All that has happened is that the behavior is not fluent everywhere.  Think of it as a training opportunity, not a reason for punishment, and you might do better without the use of a prong. 

Please. I trained Ivan to heck and back. Positively. He had a bad case of "I don't feel like it right now." Which was often matched with wanting to do something else that wasn't safe.

It took 2-4 corrections for him to start obeying commands in a timely fashion. I don't see how those corrections could have taught him what we wanted 

Most dogs are not Ivan, and there are ways to motivate them that do not involve corrections. But I am tired of reading things that suggest corrections don't work, and are never used effectively. Poppycock. I've seen them work. I think they probably work with a lot of dogs, when used with proper timing. I will argue against using corrections as the default, because it is true that there are gentler ways to accomplish obedience (most of the time).

I'll be happy to never use a prong again. I will absolutely use a prong again before a GL. Those things give me the heebie jeebies.  

Pwca

 One of my biggest beefs with the clicker community is that the apparently need to justfy their training style by calling others abusive or ineffective. We've got some all-clicker OTChs and plenty of MACHs now. Let the results speak for themselves.

I think this is painting a group of people with a very broad brush, and I am sorry you've had such negative experiences with folks who clicker train.

I don't feel that I need to justify my training methods to anyone and I use my clicker for most of my training. I focus on educating myself and making decisions that I feel are best for my dogs -- the same way most other members of the forum arrive at their training choices. In the end, to each his own.

I think what you are seeing is more a personality trait than a group thing. Certain personality types (nobody specific in mind) will always use the offensive to make their point.

Pwca

 One of my biggest beefs with the clicker community is that the apparently need to justfy their training style by calling others abusive or ineffective. We've got some all-clicker OTChs and plenty of MACHs now. Let the results speak for themselves.

PWCA, I loved your entire post. But I want to highlight this and make an admission.

I was more inclined to use my clicker before I became a regular on this board. This is no one's fault but my own - I'm the one having a knee jerk emotional response to the way clickers are promoted here, and any other technique insulted. But I am having that response, and I'm someone who has used a clicker! LOL, I'm one of mudpuppy's shut down dogs. I associate clickers with negativity. (That was not a insult to mudpuppy. Just making a joke).

I need to get over myself, because I'd like to try Eko on a clicker for some things. I just feel kind of ... ugh about it. /personal weakness.  

mudpuppy

A prong pop followed by a command to "focus" is what I use, and if successful on the first try, the dogs are well rewarded.

wouldn't it be more effective to teach them to just ignore the cats?  I too own extremely large extremely high prey drive dogs and I teach them to calmly walk by cats and squirrels when on leash without ever giving them pops.  Try reading "control unleashed" and "click to calm" , and hey, how about "when pigs fly" for some ideas about more effective training methods. And in the meantime, use your prongs to stay safe.

Thanks to this forum, I have read those books and continue to try to teach my dogs to ignore, ignore, ignore.  We have mastered squirrels, but we cannot seem to move past cats.  We are still working on it, though, and I think THAT is the point- I'm not going to stop trying just because it takes a while.  Like I said, it may take me 10 years, but we'll get there.

ETA:

It occurs to me that part of the problem is that "corrective conditioning" is easier, and certainly cheaper, for the layman (ME!).  I think the reason most people either fail or reach plateaus (ME!) with clicker training is the layman factor..  Up until very recently, paying for training was absolutely out of my price range, and I know I'm not alone.  I suspect that most people have problems with clickers have never actually taken a class.  I may move forward with that now if I can find a private trainer in my area- I'm not sure I want to subject my dogs to the judgement of a group class just yet.

Dog_ma

spiritdogs

 It should be used as a self correcting collar, NOT as a collar that the handler pops to issue a correction.  That is basically inhumane, and if you have a dog that you think you must do that to, I submit that the dog is ill trained, and you should revisit the training, not punish the dog for disobeying what he clearly doesn't know in the first place.  I know - what do you do if he DOES know?  Well, then, you ask yourself if he really knows in THAT circumstance.  Dogs often do well in the living room, at the training center, in the yard, down the road, BUT then you take them to the Petco parking lot (or name your own distracting circumstance) and they're out of control.  All that has happened is that the behavior is not fluent everywhere.  Think of it as a training opportunity, not a reason for punishment, and you might do better without the use of a prong. 

 

Please. I trained Ivan to heck and back. Positively. He had a bad case of "I don't feel like it right now." Which was often matched with wanting to do something else that wasn't safe.

It took 2-4 corrections for him to start obeying commands in a timely fashion. I don't see how those corrections could have taught him what we wanted 

Most dogs are not Ivan, and there are ways to motivate them that do not involve corrections. But I am tired of reading things that suggest corrections don't work, and are never used effectively. Poppycock. I've seen them work. I think they probably work with a lot of dogs, when used with proper timing. I will argue against using corrections as the default, because it is true that there are gentler ways to accomplish obedience (most of the time).

I'll be happy to never use a prong again. I will absolutely use a prong again before a GL. Those things give me the heebie jeebies.  

If you had one of the few who truly had a screw loose, and it appears you did since you opted for euthanasia, then your desperate attempt to change his behavior might be excusable, but for general consumption on a message board, I hardly think that it is necessary to be so insistent about this being ok.  It really isn't for most dogs.  And, it can be decidedly harmful to fearful or aggressive dogs. 

It occurs to me that part of the problem is that "corrective conditioning" is easier, and certainly cheaper, for the layman (ME!).  I think the reason most people either fail or reach plateaus (ME!) with clicker training is the layman factor..  Up until very recently, paying for training was absolutely out of my price range, and I know I'm not alone.  I suspect that most people have problems with clickers have never actually taken a class.  I may move forward with that now if I can find a private trainer in my area- I'm not sure I want to subject my dogs to the judgement of a group class just yet.

Guess what?  The people who don't take class use correction incorrectly, too, so you are not alone.  The beauty of clicker training is that it is hard to really mess up the dog.  I don't think you should opt for a private trainer (usually much more costly than group classes) just to avoid "judgment". Most clicker classes are not the same as you may have been accustomed to in the obedience world.  They tend to be friendly and supportive, for the most part.  I do agree with you that people who have difficulty have probably either not taken a class, as you say, but they probably didn't buy Peggy Tillman's book or visit www.clickerlessons.com either and really give it a try.  I would be willing to bet that those Pibbles would pick this stuff up really fast - after all, they are a working breed... didn't you see the clicker training challenge thread?  Jump on in there with the others - they will not judge.  I'll bet you a donut. 

I would certainly be a little nervous if a small lady was heading my way with 6 German Shepherds. At least until it occurred to me that with 6 of them they had to be pretty well behaved. We've had trouble from GSDs in the past.

But this does highlight the circumstances I would be okay with the use of a prong. Like I said, they're not readily available over here, but once or twice we've been out walking and someone has come along with a large, mostly untrained dog that wants to attack our dogs and the only thing stopping them is a small person holding a leash attached to a choke chain. It's scary when you have to walk past a dog like that, especially when the dog is lunging and yanking the person along with them. My mother recounts a terrifying story of a large male rottie trying to get at Pyry. The rottie was on a check chain, but the woman holding onto it didn't have the strength to control the dog. What followed was the rottie chasing Pyry around and around as my mother just barely managed to keep him out of the dog's reach. Eventually, the woman's partner (who had the smaller rottie) came to her aid and helped pull their dog away. Goodness knows what would have happened if he hadn't been there. In that kind of situation, I'd be pretty glad to see a prong by the sounds of it.

I can't see myself every using one even if I could get hold of one, though.  

LOL Corvus!  And that would be an intelligent reaction!  Six german shepherds is one heck of a lot of dog!  And while I wouldn't call myself "small" I'm not a very big person either.  My size TWO sister...that's small.  Me, I'm a 6 or 8.....sometimes a bit more!

Just to be crystal clear tho, my dogs are all on flat collars and loose leashes.

Ah, loose leashes. That'd be comforting!  

Pwca - terrific post - I found myself nodding throughout.

Dog_ma -I understand your sentiments about the clicker, too - the talk can become its own aversive..

Great post Pwca

and Dogma that is about how I feel, I have tried clickers to some extent and have several books but there is something negative in my mind regarding clicker training since joining this forum. I to am working to overcome this.

spiritdogs

If you had one of the few who truly had a screw loose, and it appears you did since you opted for euthanasia, then your desperate attempt to change his behavior might be excusable, but for general consumption on a message board, I hardly think that it is necessary to be so insistent about this being ok.  It really isn't for most dogs.  And, it can be decidedly harmful to fearful or aggressive dogs. 

But the thing is, good or bad, corrections CAN be effective. I don't think arguing that they don't work is the best way to promote alternatives, because it isn't true and lessens the credibility of the person making the claim.

Corrections can be effective. Most of the time, there are equally effective methods that are less morally questionable and undoubtedly less risky for handler and dog.

I'm not interested in my anyone excusing my past actions. And I have never argued that most dogs would do well to get corrections.On the contrary, I have said the opposite.

ETA - after composing my above post I got my behind to the back yard and began charging the clicker for Eko. Stupid confessional moments are good for me! I think Eko will like clicker training. He loves to "train" me - meaning figuring out what behaviors will get me to reward him. He fancies himself a clever boy. Little cutie.