Prong Collars - dicuss

I've been reading this thread all along and I have to say that I'm pretty offended by some of the insults being thrown back and forth. 

I use prong collars.  Until my dogs can reliably follow my every command without being distracted in high stress situations, I will continue to use them.  I will also continue to use positive reinforcement to help me move away from them, which may take me 10 years, but I'll keep trying.

I do not have "soft" dogs.  By nature, they are willful and despite all positive reinforcement, are prey driven to the point of mania by some species of animal, mainly cats.  It is not safe for the cats nor my dogs to interact without my dogs wearing a prong to remind them EXACTLY where I expect them to focus.  YES, it takes that much- a pop on the prong- to bring them back from their "i'll-eat-you-cat-just-as-soon-as-I-can-catch-you" mania.  I have tried every alternative, even to the point of an "about face" if I see a cat.  They are STRONG.  They are HEAVY.  There are now THREE of them to manage.  I am also dealing with dogs (except Indie) who were adopted as adults and had no training at all during their most critical stages of development.  It is my responsibilty as a good neighbor and a good dog handler to be able to control them despite the forces working against me. 

A prong pop followed by a command to "focus" is what I use, and if successful on the first try, the dogs are well rewarded.

Here's the bottom line:  I have a high profile breed.  It is in both my best interest, the interest of my dogs, and the interest of the breed as a whole that I am able to keep my dogs under my control AT ALL TIMES, not just when it's sunshine and rainbows. 

All this business about "dogs being dogs" is getting WAY off topic.

  don't think I'd use one for pulling.  I use one for two weeks with a VERY specific goal in mind, not just "walking nicely" or "heel", but something much more formal and competitive (her eyes GLUED to me, shoulder to shoulder, prancing steps).  Kenya has been a very easy dog, very eager to train and very biddable.  The prong was used to take it a step further, and I saw instant results. 

I don't understand why you'd resort to a prong for this particular application. I don't see a prong as your best tool for refining a behavior.  A clicker works wonderfully for refining heeling to this extent- you can isolate exactly what you want, and upgrade the dog's average performance very rapidly without fear of damaging the high drive and intensity you need to win. Have you ever seen a "choose to heel" class? dogs are worked off-leash and within a few minutes you see dramatic improvements in the heelwork and the intensity of the dogs.

badrap

Here's the bottom line:  I have a high profile breed.  It is in both my best interest, the interest of my dogs, and the interest of the breed as a whole that I am able to keep my dogs under my control AT ALL TIMES, not just when it's sunshine and rainbows. 

I agree 100%

German shepherds aren't exactly low profile......granted they don't have QUITE the reputation of the "killer pit bulls" but when folks see six of them walking down the street with just little ole me, they'd best be under my complete control.  And they are. 

I am not opposed to using a prong in certain situations.  I do have a problem with folks claiming that they are totally painfree and advocating positioning them in the area of the neck to inflict maximum pain.

glenmar

German shepherds aren't exactly low profile......granted they don't have QUITE the reputation of the "killer pit bulls" but when folks see six of them walking down the street with just little ole me, they'd best be under my complete control.  And they are. 

I am not opposed to using a prong in certain situations.  I do have a problem with folks claiming that they are totally painfree and advocating positioning them in the area of the neck to inflict maximum pain.

True indeed, alhough I would contest that German Shepards, due to decades of good breeding, may be inherently more "obedient" or "trainable" than the traditional pit bull or his cousins.  After all, the German Shepard is a true working dog- it's in the blood.  While they are intimidating in stature, I usually expect a very high level of performance from them.  (I am trying to compliment them.)

I do NOT believe prongs are pain free, but I also believe that my dogs may not be as affected by them as other dogs due to simple breed characteristics- they are bred to tolerate pain.  *disclaimer* I am NOT saying that's an excuse to intentionally inflict pain on my dogs!! no way, no how.  What I am saying is that some breeds may be more tolerant certain types of discomfort.  When I have actually HURT my dog (like stepping on a foot), the reaction is COMPLETELY different from that of a prong correction.  I believe that pain is subjective, and if used correctly, then prongs provide more of an "attention" discomfort.  If you are using a prong and causing clear pain to your dog, then you're doing it wrong.

 I used one on Rosco when we adopted him for LLW and on Lexi for about two seconds before being introduced to clicker-training. After being introduced to clicker-training with Lexi, that's the method I prefer to use.

I don't know that I think there is a blanket "it's OK to use a prong collar when.." statement. I've never had a dog that required going in that directon of training, because I've found I could accomplish everything I want with a clicker and creative thinking.

JMO.
 

Chuffy

 Have you ever used one?  If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?

If you've never used one - would you?  In what circumstances is it ok?  How should one be used? 

Or are you against them and if so why and how much (just dislike them yourself, believe they should be banned or not on sale to general public?)

Let's talk about prong collars... 

I used a prong to help my 110 lb, 10 month old dog walk nicer on lead.  He was a moose and litterly could drag me down the street - he was to big for me to handle.  I use to wrap the leash around my waste in order to have a some control.  I did try the "tree" method or "turn and walk the other way" but with no success.  My behaviorist suggested the prong, he called it power steering for dogs and in my case he was 100% correct.  He immediatly stopped pulling and walk nicely.  After only a short time he became use to NOT pulling and I was able to go to a martingale collar and then to a flat.  The whole progression was less than two months.  Beside training him to walk nicely on lead with the prong collar, I was also teaching him durning different training session to come and lots of attention exercises.  So adventually they all came together..

I would never consider using one on either my pug or Catahoula, they are both very soft small dogs.  I can hold them, so I think the tree or turning exercise would work for them.  But I didn't have to teach either dog to walk nice on lead, they just did automatically - both of them.

Prong Collar - Fact vs Fiction- enjoy:  http://www.fortunatek9.com/Articles/Prong_Collar_Julia_V_McDonough.pdf

Have I used one? - Yes, many - different sizes and different dogs

Why? - Prong has a limited closure and the impact is easier to control for a novice. Slip/choke and flat collars ineffective for pullers or chargers, flat collar also damaging skin and hair (not to mention airway), harness results in pulling, head halter dangerous to neck torquing. 

My trainer used it during G's foundation, and we used it during parts of her adolescence to control pulling, quick charges at things.  We used it during SchH to evoke super-fast down-out-of-motion.  I used it last weekend as we walked around an animal fair ("oooh! Ferrets look fun to chase!";)  Much easier to use the prong ONCE than nag with a flat collar - and I get sick of explaining the e-collar or holding the transmitter when she only needs a correction once.  Fast, simple, clear, concise.

mudpuppy

  don't think I'd use one for pulling.  I use one for two weeks with a VERY specific goal in mind, not just "walking nicely" or "heel", but something much more formal and competitive (her eyes GLUED to me, shoulder to shoulder, prancing steps).  Kenya has been a very easy dog, very eager to train and very biddable.  The prong was used to take it a step further, and I saw instant results. 

I don't understand why you'd resort to a prong for this particular application. I don't see a prong as your best tool for refining a behavior.  A clicker works wonderfully for refining heeling to this extent- you can isolate exactly what you want, and upgrade the dog's average performance very rapidly without fear of damaging the high drive and intensity you need to win. Have you ever seen a "choose to heel" class? dogs are worked off-leash and within a few minutes you see dramatic improvements in the heelwork and the intensity of the dogs.

Tried clicking for months (since I got her until end of Dec.).  It broke up the behavior and she lost focus no matter how much I try to teach her that a click does not end a behavior.  I also tried putting treats in my mouth and spitting them, but she has never been able to catch food that is thrown at her (she blinks or watches the ground for it to fall).  Also, she is not food motivated or toy motivated, so I can't put toys under my arm like they do for SchH.  There was no damage to her drive or intensity.  Her tail is held horizontal, her mouth is open with her tongue out, her eyes are bright and focused, and she's got a nice prancy step with the attitude we want (engaged and focused, not just following me around).  She is always worked off leash in our classes, but for the lower levels the dog has to be on a lead (one more leg and we are done with the lead).  We tried the prong on a whim and got instant results, no leash corrections needed.  I also introduced a verbal sound before I could see she was getting ahead of herself with the prong on.  Now if she does step ahead every once in a while I just say the verbal correction and that's that.  I don't really know why it worked, but it did.  I used it for maybe 8 walks total (we use walks for training, not exercise) and haven't used it since. Now she has a good off-lead heel, or on lead when required.  The only thing I can think of is when showing she had to be out front, not looking at the handler.  When I "release" her on walks she walks out front on a loose leash, which I don't mind as long as there is also a formal heel.  I think that walking out front was the only thing reinforced for a long time.

spiritdogs

It is ridiculous to assume that because you have to yank harder to hurt a dog, that the dog doesn't feel and interpret pain the same way we might.   I think most humans would like to be treated with the same care and respect that I show my dogs (and that they show me).  So, to answer that equally "ridiculous" statement about the dog food, I'm also sure that most people would like to eat the human equivalent of what my dogs get - which is natural and organic.  What are you feeding - Beneful????  If you think dogs should be treated like dogs, that would be what's available in the low cost aisle at your local Piggly Wiggly.

Who said anything about yanking? A collar pop is a quick and light pull upwards to snap a dog out of pulling, jumping, what have you. The intention is not to hurt the dog, but to gets its attention and let it know you want it to focus 100%.

If you read my previous post thoroughly you would know what I fed my dog; please try not to be rude an insulting, as I feel you're trying to get a rise out of me, like my post has obviously gotten out of you. I do think a human trying on a prong collar is utterly ridicuals: how did it fit properly? how were the links the correct amount? how can you take in account loose skin and fur? Yes, I treat my dog like a dog and not a human. But that does not mean I do not respect him. I respect him very much, and I treat him always with fairness. Treating a dog like a dog does not constitute feeding it crap food.

BlackLabbie

Yes, I have used a prong collar. I used a prong collar with my Lab/Mix, who is 100+ lbs. I did first try the regular flat collar- he pulled out of it, and a gentle leader. The gentle leader works great, unless it isn't on. It didn't teach him anything, it just prevented him from pulling, walking in circles, backing out of a collar, if it isn't on he goes back for the most part to bad leash manners. Then I tried the prong collar, it worked instantly. I do not let it self correct, but I do "collar pop", we got his full attention instantly, this is what works best for us, and we do have a trainer to show us when/how to correct when needed. We also used it to correct him from jumping when people came over to our house. We would put his leash & prong on when we'd see a car drive up and tell him to "sit" and "stay", if he tried to run at them/jump on them he got corrected. We could not allow a 100+lbs dog jumping on people.

When the prong collar is used propery it is very effective and non-harming. It should be snug, and placed high on the neck. The weight is also crucial. Timing during corrections is crucial too. I would not recommend using it unless you have a trainer to show you how/when to correct. Here's a good website to show you how it should be worn: http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Here some backround: Apollo is between 5-7 yrs old, I adopted him 3/1/2007. He was tied out 24/7 from 8weeks until I got him, with very little human contact. I adopted him from a high kill shelter in GA, and had him driven to MA. He had never been inside a house before. He was never on a leash to be walked, never house broken, never any obedience. He was a challenge! I think many of you, who have owned your dog since it was a puppy are very lucky....it's extremely difficult to train a large dog that has a puppy mentality; maybe if we got him and he was 25lbs or under we could have corrected him with something gentler. They're allot easier when they're small!!!!

If you have your dog's co-operation, it doesn't matter how much he weighs (Clothier)

I notice you don't mention any positive training, which would have made his size and weight irrelevant.  You seem pretty hung up on the idea that corrections are necessary.  I agree with you that you can't let him jump on visitors, but corrections are not the only way to achieve that. 

Anyway, prongs.  I would never use a prong.  Like Kim, I feel that there are too many other devices out there which do not cause that level of discomfort.  They DO cause discomfort.  That is how they work.  I do not buy into this "it mimicks a dogs bite to the neck" idea.  I think that's tripe.  It doesn't mimick a "bite" at all, a bite would probably occur to the face, or if it WAS to the neck, to the side, and not necessarily right up by the ears (where it is going to HURT).  I think that's something put about by the people selling the product, or the trainers who use them and don;t want to admit to their clients that it is uncomfortable for the dog. This dishonesty and/or ignorance alone is enough to put me off the product.

I don't think they should be on sale to the general public, as there is too much margin for mis use.  But I'd like to see check chains off the shelves far more.   

A prong pop followed by a command to "focus" is what I use, and if successful on the first try, the dogs are well rewarded.

wouldn't it be more effective to teach them to just ignore the cats?  I too own extremely large extremely high prey drive dogs and I teach them to calmly walk by cats and squirrels when on leash without ever giving them pops.  Try reading "control unleashed" and "click to calm" , and hey, how about "when pigs fly" for some ideas about more effective training methods. And in the meantime, use your prongs to stay safe.

That's probably because I wasn't introduced to positive training. For regular leash walks we had already tried the regular flat collar and the gentle leader, the flat he backed out of and the GL was great unless he didn't have it on- then he knew he could back out of the flat, which lead to us going to a trainer, who I really do like on a personal level, who is a little old school and firm yet fair.

I agree they do cause discomfort, that's why they're so effective. But, I do not believe the cause pain.

BTW- Apollo does not wear a prong any more. He only did while in training and learning to walk and not jump.

 I'm not keen on the "old school" types.  So we will never agree on that score. 

Why not try a different method of training? Even if you think he doesn't "need" it anymore?  He will probably love it.  Try the clicker or agility.... then you will see better where some of us are coming from. 

And it's a little OT but I don't get all this "I treat him like a dog" business.  What exactly do you mean by that??  We ALL treat our dogs like dogs.  It's a moot point.   

Chuffy

And it's a little OT but I don't get all this "I treat him like a dog" business.  What exactly do you mean by that??  We ALL treat our dogs like dogs.  It's a moot point.   

It is OT, but, all I meant was I'm not going to try a prong collar on myself- ever. I'm not a dog, I'm a human. It's a dog training tool meant for dogs, and not humans. Dogs have their training tools, humans have theirs.