Prong Collars - dicuss

Have you ever used one?  Yes

If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first? I used one on Kenya for two weeks to go from very nice loose leash walking to a very close, formal "heel" with maintaining eye contact.  We have not used it in two months and now all of our training at home and in class is done off-lead. 

Before using the prong, I tried gentle corrections on a Martingale, luring with food, "capturing" moments when she was in the proper position, and keeping food in my mouth and spitting it.  Progress was slow to non-existent.  I don't think she understood what it was we were trying to do.

... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?  Yes, it worked almost instantly.  Her formal heel with eye contact was there before, but very inconsistent.  She would do it for a few steps but then lose focus and get a step ahead of me.  The self-correcting prong was like a reminder, "oh yeah! back HERE!"  I use it in combination with LOTS of reward and praise, including praise and treats during the behavior and allowing her to walk in a more relaxed position in intervals.

In what circumstances is it ok? IMO, it is OK when you use it as a tool to achieve a very specific behavior and only use it for a certain period of time.  The prong collar does not train the dog, YOU do!  It's also only appropriate if used in combination with positive reinforcement.  You must communicate to the dog when they are doing it RIGHT, not only using corrections for what is "wrong".  It's also only OK to use on certain dogs.  I would never use a prong on a dog with any sort of reactivity or aggression.  When I used one with Kenya, I made sure to never used it in any situation that I could not control.  For example, if another dog or person was approaching, I would switch the leash to her flat collar, cross the street, or have her do a sit-stay.  I made dang sure the prong did not do any correcting with other people or dogs around, lest she think that people and dogs = poking on the neck.  I would NEVER use a prong (or ANY tool) to force submission.

How should one be used? See above.  Fit and position is VERY important.  It won't work if it's not fitted properly.  See Ed Frawley's site for proper fit and position (note: I'm not condoning his training methods).  Also, I think prongs should be self-correcting.  You should not have to "pop" corrections on them.  The intent is not to physically punish the dog, but it's like a hard tap on the shoulder as if to say "hello?  remember how we are working here?" so the dog regains or maintains focus.

I have not used a prong collar. If I did, it would be along the lines of Liesje. For a specific time and for the purpose of training a specific walking pattern, if other methods had not worked. Starting with the least aversive, first. For some dogs, the prong may not seem aversive but indeed, a touch cue. In which case, I the human, should always realize what the prong means to the dog, not what it means to me.

It is meant to be a -R tool. Pressure is released as the dog walks with slack in the leash. So, the dog eventually walks in LLW or Heel to avoid the increased pressure. From what I know, the collar has to be fitted with limited slip and is best started out on a short leash. That way, the dog feels the slightest pressure at the slightest surge, rather than running on for 10 feet and then getting "bit."

Even though I don't use it and would certainly try other methods first, I can see where it has some use. And if a dog could never walk politely without it, then so be it. But that would be an exception, imo. It's not for every dog or for all the time. But I have seen it used properly, I think. I'm not sure if it was necessary but it wasn't misused that I could see with this one guy and his Neapolitan Mastiff. The guy wore a shoulder loop attached to the proper link on a prong collar but the dog never surged ahead and walked slowly at his side through the store.

I think it is a training tool for when others aren't working. For one or two exceptions, it might be the best way to walk the dog. But I don't think it is necessary for every dog, all the time and it should not be used for corrections.

Chuffy

Have you ever used one? 

Yes

Chuffy

If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first...

 I use one on Hektor when out and about in public where there are other dogs or running animals and people. He walks just fine on a flat collar but when he wants to he can drag me anywhere on a flat collar and correcting him is difficult. A prong works great, I use it as a self correcter. I have not used anything else, the situations rarely occur and they are not something I want to practice but in the event that another dog (which has happened) lunges at Hektor I can control him easily without yelling yanking and having a dog fight.

 He has been taught to heel on a flat collar and without corrections and has always been a natural at walking nicely on a leash, so I have never had to use the prong for heeling. I am not opposed to the prong collar and think they are useful tools in many different situations. I do not like to see sharp corrections made with prongs, and have never felt the need to administer them. I also hate to see dogs pulling like mad with a prong on.

Chuffy

If you've never used one - would you?

No.

Chuffy

In what circumstances is it ok?

For me - none. Not when there are other pain-free tools that can be used for the same purpose. And a lack of equipment is preferable to teaching a dog the behaviour that you want in the first place, if you are working with a relatively normal dog.

The only reason a prong collar works is because it causes some amount of discomfort - that discomfort will be different for every dog of course, but that is the basis of "why" it works, when it works. That's not meant to be offensive, but it's just being honest. It's simply the dynamic of its construction. Of course everyone uses it differently, but in order to change behaviour on its own, it needs to have some level of aversive property. There's no magic to it, there's no "simulating a wolf bite" or any of that jazz, it works because of P+/R- and its aversive properties. It's the same reason that a GL only works because it physically controls the movement of the head, and a front-clip harness only works because it controls the movement of the body. And a choke chain works because it causes discomfort. And why for some a martingale can work because it results in a partial-tightening within limitations (for those who use martingales in that manner). Any why a normal flat collar/normal harness rarely work alone to change behaviour, because they do neither of those things.

So for me, when there are a host of pain-free tools available, I choose to go that route. And for the rest of the public who are just buying these things off the shelves, with no knowledge of the side effects of any tool (yes, I include GL's here), or how to use them right (for some of the tools there is no agreement on what is "correct" anyhow), IMO they are going to be a lot better off using something that doesn't cause pain.

Chuffy

 Have you ever used one?  If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?

I have used one for a while on Woobie.  It's the type that has rubber caps on the prongs so to me, it seems more humane.  I tried flat collar first and then a martingale collar with a chain that would make noise when yanked on (hope I'm describing that properly).  I gave in and tried the collar because every other dog in our training class was using one and progressing and Woobie wasn't making any progress really.  Also because he slipped out of his harness once when frightened and I do feel when we're out for a walk where he could get spooked, there's less chance of him getting away with a properly fitted prong collar on.  It did succeed, but I really have a mental thing about using it and my trainer taught to use it to give corrections (which I didn't know until recently was incorrect).  I've used one on Indie as well for taking them both on walks after they both lunged on flat collars and dragged me.  Not fun.

Chuffy

 

Or are you against them and if so why and how much (just dislike them yourself, believe they should be banned or not on sale to general public?)

Let's talk about prong collars...

 I just would feel better if I could find a way to motivate my dog (especially WOOBIE!!!) to walk nicely beside me and do what I friggin ask of him without me having to physically force him to.  As a child I had a Lab who'd been obedience trained and was on voice command by 1 year.  I long for those days of having a dog reliably at my side no matter the distraction and without a leash. 

I think they should be allowed to be sold.  There's an older woman at my dog park who really should be using one.  She has a mastiff/boxer beast who must weight about 100 lbs who knocks her down way too much.  THAT dog needs a prong collar because the gentle leader means nothing to her and the woman won't go to classes.  She's going to end up with a broken hip, I can see it coming.  I also think it's necessary for dogs that would pull their owners down the street if they could or for children to walk large dogs.  I think they have an appropriate use, but it should be with guidance.

I don't mind them, I just feel like I should be doing better with my dog than to have to use them.  I guess it's the outward sign of my lack of total control and makes me feel like a failure! LOL!   

Yeap, i have used them, my cousin has one and it the only tool he has to walk his dog, when i ask him if i can walk his dog then thats the only thing on hand, his dog walks beautifully, so prong or not prong it would not make any difference

Besides that i dont use prongs, i dont really need them, no matter how bad a dog is while walking, in 5 minutes or less i have the dog walking with a normal leash as nicely as any other, i have walked A LOT of dogs and i never had any problem with any of them (and they were really bad pullers, etc with their owners)

I did use a prong for a bit with Thor.  He was young, hardheaded, pulled like a locomotive, and his regular training had been interrepted by life, a long distance move, and my living out of state for a bit.  I will admit that I probably didn't know what the heck I was doing in the training area, as far as loose leash walking, or at least not when it came to a large dog.  The only trainer where we first lived was a yank and crank guy who insisted on chokers for all the pups and insisted on the violent alpha roll where you grabbed the pup by the scruff, lifted it in the air and then slammed it down...and this was NOT for a misbehavior....this was to show the pup that you were in fact, in charge.  After we moved, the only trainer I could find was at PetsMart and at that time,  folks here were really down on PS trainers.  The rest of the training had been easy....just that pesky LLW was a sticking point.

I tried everything that was suggested to me....all non aversives.  The tree....gosh, my neighbors thot it was funny to see me standing there growing roots, but, Thor could pull me off my feet and drag me down the street.  Road rash on the butt isn't somthing I recommend.  With my shoulders, he could REALLY hurt me.  I tried putting the lead around my waist to use my (then) considerable weight as an anchor....didn't stop him, he just pulled harder.  I absolutely agonized about getting a prong.  But, once I DID get it, I was able to put all Anne's great advise, and that of others, to work for me, because, wonder of wonders, suddenly he didn't PULL like a locomotive and he was listening to me again!  Because I was using the prong I could really TRAIN him and not have to use it for long.  He WORE it for a long time.....not with a lead attached, but he felt the need to wear his jewelry for several months and would revert to pulling if I didn't "let" him wear it.  Again, the lead was on his flat collar, but for some reason he WANTED to wear his prong.

In a case where a dog is not agressive, nor reactive, and is simply being a hard headed jerk who needs a bit of a tool to get his attention, I don't have an issue with a prong.  For myself, with all the shoulder/neck surgeries I've had, I just couldn't risk making things worse.  One shoulder is done....to the point that the next step is a replacement......and those don't last very long.  I was shown to put the prong on the thickest part of the neck...too low or too high inflicts maximum pain and that's not the goal.....but, YOU HAVE TO TRAIN THE DOG AT THE SAME TIME!!  The prong is not meant for long term use and as a way to avoid proper teaching.

The prong is not every going to be my first choice, and thankfully I've learned a lot in the past five years, and my dogs have been able to learn without a tool (except for Thor) and the fosters I look after learn as well, without using an aversive.  I have limited time with my fosters.....generally two months max, so I MUST teach them quickly....and I can, without using a prong or any other tool.  However, if push came to shove and the difference for one of my guests between a great home and not being placed was LLW training and we weren't progressing, yes, I would use a prong again.

Yes, I have used a prong collar. I used a prong collar with my Lab/Mix, who is 100+ lbs. I did first try the regular flat collar- he pulled out of it, and a gentle leader. The gentle leader works great, unless it isn't on. It didn't teach him anything, it just prevented him from pulling, walking in circles, backing out of a collar, if it isn't on he goes back for the most part to bad leash manners. Then I tried the prong collar, it worked instantly. I do not let it self correct, but I do "collar pop", we got his full attention instantly, this is what works best for us, and we do have a trainer to show us when/how to correct when needed. We also used it to correct him from jumping when people came over to our house. We would put his leash & prong on when we'd see a car drive up and tell him to "sit" and "stay", if he tried to run at them/jump on them he got corrected. We could not allow a 100+lbs dog jumping on people.

When the prong collar is used propery it is very effective and non-harming. It should be snug, and placed high on the neck. The weight is also crucial. Timing during corrections is crucial too. I would not recommend using it unless you have a trainer to show you how/when to correct. Here's a good website to show you how it should be worn: http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

Here some backround: Apollo is between 5-7 yrs old, I adopted him 3/1/2007. He was tied out 24/7 from 8weeks until I got him, with very little human contact. I adopted him from a high kill shelter in GA, and had him driven to MA. He had never been inside a house before. He was never on a leash to be walked, never house broken, never any obedience. He was a challenge! I think many of you, who have owned your dog since it was a puppy are very lucky....it's extremely difficult to train a large dog that has a puppy mentality; maybe if we got him and he was 25lbs or under we could have corrected him with something gentler. They're allot easier when they're small!!!!

I respectfully disagree with your suggested placement of the prong.  The top of the neck is the MOST sensitive area, therefore those corrections inflict maximum pain.

I work with a couple GSD rescues.  I foster and have had many adults, or older pups.  The last two were 8 months old, had lived their entire lives in cages, first at the puppy mill, then at the shelter where they were held until they were legally released.  It is not at all uncommon for me to get dogs who have had absolutely no training in any area.  And gsds are pretty good sized dogs.  I have yet to resort to a prong on one of my fosters.  I'm not a trainer, not an expert on anything, just an old broad with a lot of dog experience under my belt.

In my volunteering with a local rescue, I'm often at PetSmart on the weekends and got to know an older woman who rescued an older dog.  Boone was a Katrina dog who was given up by his first adopter and had absolutely NO training.  Boone is probably about 8 or 9.  This old gal takes him every week to classes and Boone walks along beside her like a lamb now.  It's really sweet to see the two "senior citizens" strolling along together....a couple months ago, Boone was dragging this gal where HE wanted to go.  And, these trainers don't allow prongs or chokers.

I have never used a prong and I don't think I ever will.  But remember, I am a person who intentionally looks for easy dogs.  I also make a point of giving my dog a LOT of off-leash exercise every day, so when they are on leash they don't pull very much and I can get them to stop pulling with a command. 

I have also seen far too many people who use a prong as an every-day collar and the dog still pulls, I guess they have become desensitized to the pain.

Finally, I am with Ann and believe that the least aversive techniques should be used before the more aversive techniques.  I know many people who I have seen using prongs haven't really tried less forceful techniques since I have spoken to them about it.  For the majority of people who use prongs it is a substitute for proper training and good communication between the human and dog.  I believe there are a few cases where prongs may be necessary, or a few discrete situations where they are helpful, but in the majority of cases should not be used.

While I have used a prong, I agree with many of the posts above me.  I don't think I'd use one for pulling.  I use one for two weeks with a VERY specific goal in mind, not just "walking nicely" or "heel", but something much more formal and competitive (her eyes GLUED to me, shoulder to shoulder, prancing steps).  Kenya has been a very easy dog, very eager to train and very biddable.  The prong was used to take it a step further, and I saw instant results.  Anytime I see a tail that is not held high and wagging, I abandon whatever technique I am using and move to something else.  She paid absolutely no mind to the prong - she got excited when it went on and while we were working she was more engaged and happier than ever b/c she finally understood what we were working on.  I'm honest with myself about how and why it works, but at the same time I have put one on myself and popped it and it hurt less than getting a carpet shock.  It really must be fitted properly with the right amount of links or it will cause pain. 

It seems like most people use prongs for "problems" or dogs that are too willful or whatever.  I actually see them most appropriate for the opposite - for dogs that already have a sound base in training and are not going to be reactive when a prong is used.  Too many people resort to a prong so quickly for pulling.  Coke is/was a major puller but we tried an Easy Walk with him and had instant results.  He's also on his second training class and has drastically improved.  I don't think I'd ever use a prong on a dog that I hadn't put through a few training classes first, if for no other reason than you really need to KNOW the dog to know whether a prong is appropriate.  My uncle put one on his dog.  It didn't solve any of the pulling issues and made her MORE leash reactive and dog aggressive.  I've given up on working with her because no one else is committed to actually training her.

 yes we have used one and still do with Bugsy. I don't like to but I do. I have never used a snap of any sort with him but I have seen DH and reprimanded him for it.  Bugsy can walk very nicely now and was never one of those dogs that pulled like a maniac but he is SUPER powerful and fast, and used to want to chase every moving object (from leaf to squirrel to bird, etc.)  I used the prong because allowed me to keep him focused and to learn how to not chase moving things.  We have the gentle leader harness and that irritates his skin terribly, we have a sporn harness same problem.  I would feel it irresponsible to walk him or take him out in public without a guaranteed way of controlling him should I need to.  please hear that I said SHOULD I NEED TO.

In our case the flat collar could do more damage than the prong, there is no question in my mind.  As for the pain factor, never once has he indicated that it is painful, whereas not too long ago we were at an SPCA event and I went with flat collar and there were a bunch of cats.  Bugsy is very cat reactive, when one hissed he got crazy and I was holding on for dear life and he was clearly more uncomfortable with the leather collar pressing on his windpipe than he has ever been with the prong - why well I'm guessing that he feels the contact from the prong but it doesn't compress his throat - a flat collar does. 

I see this experience as a reminder that I need to be prepared for the unknown.  He is large and powerful, I need to have some method of restriction if I need it and the prong is actually the most humane.  Ideally he would never get too happy or want to chase a cat but that ain't who he is.  Most of the time he has it on but the leash is attached to the flat collar.  The prong is there if I need it.

My ideal would be a harness of some sort but all of them irritate his skin, should I find a good harness that's what we'll move to.   

I think they are a marvelous tool for controlling powerful dogs who occasional lunge hard into the leash. Otherwise I see no humane use for them.  I don't think they work very well for re-training dogs who pull steadily. I think giving leash-pops with one is completely inhumane. Prongs work because they cause A LOT of pain- the dog is highly motivated to not-lunge into one. I think leash-corrections, regardless of what type of collar the dog is wearing, should be dropped from everyone's training tool-kit. THE least effective method to train or stop any behavior.