Prong Collars - dicuss

I would gladly use one on a large, adult, untrained dog that could overpower me. If it were a matter of safetly, then yes. I'd only use it until I had better control of the dog. I feel that it's more safe than a head halter, and more control than a no-pull harness.  

My friend has two GSDs, and when I walk them, I use their prongs. I walk them alone, and if they decided to do something, they could easily do it. The prong collars give me a little more control over the two dogs who outweigh me by a good bit (combined, not individually) and are very, very strong. I'm not their regular handler, so they aren't going to listen to me like they would to their parents. If I handled them on any sort of regular basis, I'd be much more comfortable walking them on a regular collar, or on their easy walk harnesses. 

I have used one to help control a powerful dog who was literally pulling me off my feet, chasing things. We were actively training leash manners at the time. We tried a GL and a halti before the prong. Neither stopped the pulling. The prong did, although it still took adjustment and training. The easy walk harness was not available back then, but I would try that before a prong.

I have also used a prong for correction, on the same dog, but that is its own unique situation and not something I'm generally comfortable with.

I think prongs are fine tools, whether used to control a powerful dog who has not yet learned leash manners or to refine other training goals. I absolutely agree that prongs are a management tool and do not substitute for training. A prong is something you use *while* training. Not instead of.  

This must be the umptieumpth discussion of the prong on this forum, and frankly, I'm disheartened that most of our discussions lately seem to be about correction, punishment, and the use of aversives in behavior modification, when we should be seeking to keep our relationship with the dogs we love on the highest plane, and perhaps be discussing the ways in which we could leave some of these techniques behind if at all possible.  I'm still not convinced that people really understand how to do that, and that many have given up to go back to this stuff without really understanding what could be possible if they only let go of their old notions, and didn't dig their heels in so to defend them.  Believe me, if something comes along that works better than clicker training and is even more humane, I'm going to be the first one to the seminar to learn how to do it... and I will be coming here to admit it and share the good news.  But, in the name of discussion, here we go again...

 
Have you ever used one?  Yes, a long time ago.

If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?  Once upon a time, if you went to obedience class, the first thing you were taught to use was a choke collar, otherwise known as a slip collar.  Even when I learned to use one properly, I always disliked the idea of popping the dog.  It didn't seem to work well with some of the older confirmed pullers, and I hated that they could get ahead of the handler so quickly, and it was hard for many of them to slack the leash to give the pop.  The prong did the work for them, much as the Easy Walk and Gentle Leader do today for those who are inclined to use less painful means.  The collar is designed so that the dog self corrects.  Dog pulls, collar tightens, dog feels pain, dog relaxes pressure, collar loosens.  It works, but it's based on a pain-inducing stimulus.

If you've never used one - would you? 

In what circumstances is it ok?  It's ok when the owner refuses other methods and would be in danger of being yanked over without it.  But the downside is that, often, owners use it on dogs where its use is otherwise completely inappropriate.

How should one be used?  It should be used as a self correcting collar, NOT as a collar that the handler pops to issue a correction.  That is basically inhumane, and if you have a dog that you think you must do that to, I submit that the dog is ill trained, and you should revisit the training, not punish the dog for disobeying what he clearly doesn't know in the first place.  I know - what do you do if he DOES know?  Well, then, you ask yourself if he really knows in THAT circumstance.  Dogs often do well in the living room, at the training center, in the yard, down the road, BUT then you take them to the Petco parking lot (or name your own distracting circumstance) and they're out of control.  All that has happened is that the behavior is not fluent everywhere.  Think of it as a training opportunity, not a reason for punishment, and you might do better without the use of a prong.  The beauty of a GL, for example, is that you can turn your dog's head - which breaks the concentration on the distraction for long enough to attempt something else and then reward it (i.e. a behavior that is incompatible with the one you didn't want).

Or are you against them and if so why and how much (just dislike them yourself, believe they should be banned or not on sale to general public?)

I don't like them, but I also don't like to think of the scads of untrained dogs that currently wear them (notice I did NOT say that ALL dogs that wear prongs are untrained - some are highly trained, but were trained with methods other than the ones I employ to get equally well trained dogs) being fitted with flat collars, out of control, and yanking their way toward me on my walks.  Do I wish that the general public would train using positive methods, stop watching TV and tsst'ing their dogs with no other idea of what to do, and stop buying or adopting unsocialized or undersocialized puppy mill dogs?  Sure, yes to all those things.  Even if they weren't on sale to the general public, some of the trainers I know would be providing them to their clients anyway.  Education is really the key, but despite the availability of a huge body of knowledge, it seems that dogs are still being assaulted buy pop culture, misinformation, and the quick fix, and I think they will always be.  Miraculous that they still want to cooperate with humans...

Again, as in the Leash Corrections thread, a previous response matches mine almost perfectly, so I don't have to type it all out! Liesje, hope you don't mind if I use some of your text.   Thanks!  

Have you ever used one?  Yes

If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first? I am using it on Jaia (only one session so far) to go from very nice loose leash walking to a very close, formal "heel" with maintaining eye contact.

Before using the prong, I tried luring with food and toys and corrections with several other kinds of collars. Progress was slow to non-existent. 

... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?  Yes, it worked almost instantly. Our first session was very hopeful! I don't imagine I'll be using it very long at all. Perhaps 2-3 weeks? Maybe less.

In what circumstances is it ok? My answer exactly: 

Liesje

IMO, it is OK when you use it as a tool to achieve a very specific behavior and only use it for a certain period of time.  The prong collar does not train the dog, YOU do!  It's also only appropriate if used in combination with positive reinforcement.  You must communicate to the dog when they are doing it RIGHT, not only using corrections for what is "wrong".  It's also only OK to use on certain dogs.

How should one be used? See above.  Fit and position is VERY important.

(Thank you, Liesje, for your help in using this valuable tool!)

Mudpuppy, I have to disagree with you. This has been the most effective way to stop pulling and jumping for us. Also, if used properly, weight is proper, and placement is proper, they are not painful at all. I do not think you should make statements that make it sound like people who are using the prong collar are using "inhumane" techniques and inflicting "A LOT of pain" on their dog- because we're not.

 Quote from http://www.johnknowsdogs.com/prong-collar-use.htm :

With the proper use of a quality collar, the prong collar will not cause pain to your dog. It’s proper use, and fit,  will not cause pain nor will it choke your dog.

Sorry, I don't agree with John either.  Put one on yourself...on your upper arm or leg, and have someone give YOU a random leash pop.  It HURTS on bare skin, and at best is uncomfortable over clothing.

And I did use one. AS A TRAINING AID, but not to replace the actual training.  They shouldn't be used forever and always.

glenmar

Sorry, I don't agree with John either.  Put one on yourself...on your upper arm or leg, and have someone give YOU a random leash pop.  It HURTS on bare skin, and at best is uncomfortable over clothing.

And I did use one. AS A TRAINING AID, but not to replace the actual training.  They shouldn't be used forever and always.

A dogs neck and a humans arm are two totally different things. My dogs neck is at least twice the size of my arm, and it is way more muscular, plus he has so much extra loose skin around his neck and thick fur, and I don't (at least not yet!!) have loose skin on my arms or legs. Collar pops are never random, they're deliberate. Nobody ever said they should be used forever and always....

Maybe I just treat my dog like a dog....yes, he's part of the family but it doesn't mean when I do something wrong I'm going to "collar pop" myself....ridiculas....Dog food smells pretty bad to me, and my dogs eats Canidae, do you think we should eat our dogs food too? Do you think we should treat ourselves and each other like dogs?

I have a micro prong collar and have one dog that it is used on VERY occassionally....almost as a tune up.  This girl is coming 3, walks nicely on a lead, goes for walks, and is very laid back in the house....EXCEPT when all of the dogs are going outside to either potty or play.  At that point she ramps up, eyes glaze over, she barks, she grabs the legs of the other dogs and pulls hard, etc.  I used a clicker, worked on her manners alone, but none of this would transfer to the stimulus of all the dogs going out at once.  If I put her on a leash before turning the others out she got worse.  Sooo....had this micro prong collar and decided to try it.  I put it on, fitted it properly and she was a different dog.  She never hit the end of the lead and I never gave a correction.  She tightened the leash a tiny bit, and then backed off, and I was able to praise this behavior.  After putting the prong on a few times while letting the dogs out, praising appropriate behavior, I saw about a 95% improvement?  I haven't used it in months, but if she gets a bit bonkers again, I'll put it on.  It made all the difference in the world. 

 In a similar situation I'd use a prong collar again.  However, I wouldn't use one where I had a dog that pulled against it or where I had to give corrections.  I hate seeing people at Petsmart with their dogs wearing prong collars where the leash is tight tight tight, dogs are pulling, etc.  At that point it is ineffective and abusive. 

My dogs are treated gently and with respect, yet they know that I am the one who provides all things, therefore the benevolent leader.  So, I don't guess it would be all that bad to be treated that way by others.

All I am saying is that unless you have actually used a prong on yourself, you cannot say without any doubt that they are painless.  On a dog like a boxer or a pittie, that's the same as on my bare skin....and they hurt, not so much if you go a bit too far and they tighten, but by golly if someone behind you issues a leash correction, yeah, it hurts like heck.  When applied over clothing, then they are uncomforable, and I equate my clothing to a dogs fur.  I was NOT about to put one of those things on one of my dogs unless I knew for a fact, by trying it on myself, that they were not horrible instruments of torture.  I suppose it was quite the sight seeing me trot around the pet store with a prong on my leg and a trainer following behind with me on lead.  But, I got the answer that I was looking for.  Yes, a prong can inflict pain, and in the best case scenerio, WITHOUT using leash corrections, discomfort.  I know this from my own personal experience with a prong on MY body.

I do not routinely run around the house in a prong and pop myself for doing something wrong.  Yes that probably would be ridiculous.  But unless a person has worn a prong themselves, well, they cannot state for a fact that they are painless.  Honestly, your response was pretty darned hostile.

I've put one on myself as well.  They have to be fit properly, i.e., have enough links to disperse the pressure but not be too small (chokes too tight) or too large (again the pressure isn't right).  I see too many people that assume a "large" dog needs a large or XL prong!  You want MORE links, the more the better!  Leerburg's article does not mention how many, but I dug and dug on that website and I think I found another post somewhere where they said the min. is 8 links, with it ideally being 10 or more.  I made sure Kenya's had at least 10.  I tried it on myself and it didn't really hurt.  Uncomfortable...yes.  Pain....not really.  If it's tightening enough to cause actual pain rather than discomfort, then it's not fitted right.  It's just like any other Martingale collar.  YOU control how small the circumference is when it's at its tightest by properly fitting it with the right amount of links.  If it's causing pain, then either it's tightening too much or there aren't enough links to properly disperse the pressure.  Go down a size or two and add links.

Glenda is right, you also have to take into account the dog's coat and sensitivity. 

My dog is treated with respect and fairness, but he's still treated like a dog and not a human. I will agree with you on dogs coat, if it's a short-almost-not-there-coat then the dog will be more sensative to it, compared to like a Bernese MT Dog.

BlackLabbie

glenmar

Sorry, I don't agree with John either.  Put one on yourself...on your upper arm or leg, and have someone give YOU a random leash pop.  It HURTS on bare skin, and at best is uncomfortable over clothing.

And I did use one. AS A TRAINING AID, but not to replace the actual training.  They shouldn't be used forever and always.

A dogs neck and a humans arm are two totally different things. My dogs neck is at least twice the size of my arm, and it is way more muscular, plus he has so much extra loose skin around his neck and thick fur, and I don't (at least not yet!!) have loose skin on my arms or legs. Collar pops are never random, they're deliberate. Nobody ever said they should be used forever and always....

Maybe I just treat my dog like a dog....yes, he's part of the family but it doesn't mean when I do something wrong I'm going to "collar pop" myself....ridiculas....Dog food smells pretty bad to me, and my dogs eats Canidae, do you think we should eat our dogs food too? Do you think we should treat ourselves and each other like dogs?

 
It is ridiculous to assume that because you have to yank harder to hurt a dog, that the dog doesn't feel and interpret pain the same way we might.   I think most humans would like to be treated with the same care and respect that I show my dogs (and that they show me).  So, to answer that equally "ridiculous" statement about the dog food, I'm also sure that most people would like to eat the human equivalent of what my dogs get - which is natural and organic.  What are you feeding - Beneful????  If you think dogs should be treated like dogs, that would be what's available in the low cost aisle at your local Piggly Wiggly.

Well, and therein lies the question, what is treating a dog like a human?  What does it entail?

Am I treating my dogs like humans because they don't stay outside all day every day?  Because I MAKE them come inside and won't allow them to stay out all day playing in the snow when the temps are below freezing?  Because they are (gasp) allowed on the furniture after they've reached certain milestones and are invited up?  Because they eat the best quality kibble I can find for breakfast and either homecooked or raw for dinner.  Am I treating them like humans because I set them up to suceed so that it isn't necessary for me to constantly correct and criticize them? Because I have spent untold hours training and can take them out in the woods (six at a time) to take a nice romp through the woods and fields?  Because I've worked with five of them to earn their CGC?  Because one is now working on his official therapy dog designation?  Because I refuse to inflict unnecessary pain or discomfort on any of them?

To me treating them like humans would be dressing them up in clothes, inviting them to join me at the table......

But if we're not supposed to treat our dogs like dogs, what, pray tell, are we supposed to treat them like?  Cats? Little fuzzy people? Isn't it a question of different people's ideas on what is the "right" way to treat dogs? I mean... I hope we all treat our dogs like dogs. We just have different opinions on what that looks like.

A bit off topic, but interesting...  

Mods Note:

The following is the original post, regarding Prong Collars, not nutrition, as you know we have an entire area dedicated to dog nutrition, I encourage you to use it.  Also, I think everyone needs to take a step back, take a deep breath and remember to post with RESPECT towards one another.  Thank you.

Chuffy

 Have you ever used one?  If so, why did you use one and what else did you try first... did the prong succeed where other things failed and if so why?

If you've never used one - would you?  In what circumstances is it ok?  How should one be used? 

Or are you against them and if so why and how much (just dislike them yourself, believe they should be banned or not on sale to general public?)

Let's talk about prong collars...