Kicking the dog

dgriego

An alternative to this correction would be a good strong leash correction, which to me would be more harmful than me using my foot to redirect his attention. It takes a sizable leash yank to redirect a 90+ lbs dog who is in the act of going after something, to me the little foot nudge is less traumatic, less likely to cause the dog to be even more reactive (leash yank when lunging can induce the dog to attack the object more vigorously, especially if the dog is a stubborn bully breed) and gets his attention allowing me to reward him for NOT going after the skateboard and for focusing his attention on me.

Blimey.  You may not even have noticed this, but you didn't even use the word "correction" or "collar pop".  You said "yank" - normally a word avoided because of the dreaded "yank and crank" (or yank and spank) style and attached stigma.  Yet you equate the "foot correction" (or "foot interruption", or whatever we need to call it) with a "yank".  And yet others don't want to attach the word "kick" to what he does.

How tangly words can be!

And, espencer, if you pet your dogs with your feet the same way CM used his feet in that clip, you ought to be reported.  That is NOT petting, by anyone's standards. 

Chuffy

Yet you equate the "foot correction" (or "foot interruption", or whatever we need to call it) with a "yank". 

This appears to be another example of how what some of us say is not what others hear or see... that you described on page 4. Dgriego didn't EQUATE a foot correction with a yank. She said she would much rather use a "little foot nudge" than the leash correction she would have to use to get the same response from her dog, which would amount to yanking the leash. She didn't equate them, she drew a clear differentiation between them. If a "little foot nudge" would have the same effect as a leash yank, she's choosing the foot correction BECAUSE it's less intrusive.

That's how I read it anyway.  

Chuffy

You may not even have noticed this, but you didn't even use the word "correction" or "collar pop".  You said "yank" - normally a word avoided because of the dreaded "yank and crank" (or yank and spank) style and attached stigma.  Yet you equate the "foot correction" (or "foot interruption", or whatever we need to call it) with a "yank".  And yet others don't want to attach the word "kick" to what he does.

 Pray tell how would one use the leash in this situation without it being a yank? What would you use if your very large dog was going after something? Those of you who abhor the “violence” of any kind of physical touch and any kind of collar correction, what would you do in this situation? Mind you I am sure that many of the "gurus" here could walk a large problem dog with nothing more than a thread tied around his collar and a steak strapped to your backside.

 The entire scenario is hypothetical since I do not have to correct Hektor on walks; he does not attempt to eat skateboards or bikes because I have worked with him from the beginning so that he will walk properly on a flat collar.

  Attempting to communicate sure gets frustrating.

FourIsCompany

That's how I read it anyway.

  And you read it right Four!

dgriego

here could walk a large problem dog with nothing more than a thread tied around his collar and a steak strapped to your backside.

I 'd could go for a steak.

dgriego

 Enough all ready, I am going to go kick my dogs.

Nah, come kick my kid. She likes it.  

And while people may explain why they would this technique and may certainly have a valid reason in a particular situation (theoretically), others, who may have used punishment a few times may have used it but it is still not going to be the first tool out of the box.

What if my dog was keyed up? Locked on? Whatever euphemism? And the only thing that might break his focus on the target was a touch cue. Would the slightest nudge from my shoe be in order? Maybe so. And it would be with less force than CM used.

The difference is, many of us are always going to start out the steak, first. If the dog that doesn't want a treat when locked on target is so special and different, then all the more reason I can try steak with a different dog. In practice, when we were in reactive range, I would move back until I could get his attention on a treat. Move in closer and keep offering treats for listening to me to determine the critical range. Until it was down to just a few feet.

And so, I'm not, nor was it the intention of this thread, to castigate anyone here for a specific technique. It was to discuss CM's use of the technique and how it can be a reason that some people don't like CM. And that hasn't changed. So, if someone says that they disagree with CM, that doesn't mean that they dislike a person here in the forum, per se. But, alas, I think disagreements and rankled feelings will continue because some people will like CM and some will not.

So, maybe I should cook up a bunch of steak and we'll have a big, wide party.

ron2

So, maybe I should cook up a bunch of steak and we'll have a big, wide party.

 Only if you promise to strap one to your backside!!!!!

Some stranger pushed Eko with his foot this morning.

We were out walking near the beach in a dog and kid heavy area. Eko wanted to meet everyone, and of course he got tons of attention being the handsome pup he is. He walked up to a man on a bench and sniffed him. Normally, I don't let my dogs greet people without an ok, but I was loose by the end of the walk as every person we had run into wanted to say hi.

One gentle sniff, the man uncrosses his legs and with a grimace of disgust pushes Eko away with the bottom of his running shoe.   Ok, weird guy. Sorry my dog got too close. That's my bad. But if dogs gross you out that badly, you'd probably be better off finding somewhere to hang that wasn't, oh, always full of dogs?

He didn't hurt or scare Eko, so I didn't bother saying anything. And it *was impolite of me to let Eko approach him that closely. But he was an odd, odd man. The look on his face was comical. You'd think Eko pooped on his dinner plate or something.  

Dog_ma

Some stranger pushed Eko with his foot this morning.

We were out walking near the beach in a dog and kid heavy area. Eko wanted to meet everyone, and of course he got tons of attention being the handsome pup he is. He walked up to a man on a bench and sniffed him. Normally, I don't let my dogs greet people without an ok, but I was loose by the end of the walk as every person we had run into wanted to say hi.

One gentle sniff, the man uncrosses his legs and with a grimace of disgust pushes Eko away with the bottom of his running shoe.   Ok, weird guy. Sorry my dog got too close. That's my bad. But if dogs gross you out that badly, you'd probably be better off finding somewhere to hang that wasn't, oh, always full of dogs?

He didn't hurt or scare Eko, so I didn't bother saying anything. And it *was impolite of me to let Eko approach him that closely. But he was an odd, odd man. The look on his face was comical. You'd think Eko pooped on his dinner plate or something.  

Well, since you OBVIOUSLY cannot keep the poor pup from being assaulted by strangers I think I need to take him in for his own safety.....  

It always amuses me with people who have "issues" about animals go to places full of animals.  We had a customer come in when I worked at the horse barn to take their kid for a pony ride.  Ethel, our barn cat, approached the kid (about 5 or 6) to say "hi" and the mom picked up the kid ans said, "Eww, don't touch the cat, it's dirty and has diseases!" 

I decided not to mention the the pony her kid was about to ride had been laying in his own poop half the night...... 

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

Yet you equate the "foot correction" (or "foot interruption", or whatever we need to call it) with a "yank". 

 

This appears to be another example of how what some of us say is not what others hear or see... that you described on page 4.

Yes!  That was kind of the point I was trying to make!    Thanks for the video clip btw  

I wonder WHY the "foot nudge" gets the response from the dog, that you would normally have to "yank" to achieve?

Is it because it is MORE intrusive?  Maybe it's just wildly different to what has been hitherto tried and so catches his attention?  WHY does it work?  That's the question that is bugging me....

Chuffy

I wonder WHY the "foot nudge" gets the response from the dog, that you would normally have to "yank" to achieve?

Well, the dog wears a collar most of the time. He is accustomed to the feel of it on his neck and the feeling of a person at the other end of the strap of leather that's connected to the collar. In most of these situations (like the dog who obsesses about skateboards), it is a common occurrence to have the person pulling against the dog on the lead. The dog pulls, the person pulls. It's all part of the game. The dog is used to this feeling. It's expected.

Now, in the midst of the pulling contest, during which the dog is totally obsessed and focused on the skateboard and feeling the familiar pulling on his neck, all of a sudden, out of the blue, outside of his field of vision, something taps him in a place that he is NOT expecting any contact. It can be a very light tap because it's unexpected. Nobody's back there. The foot comes from nowhere. It startles him and breaks the concentration and focus he has on the skateboard.

It works because it's unexpected and in a place (the flank) that he is not comfortable being touched in the middle of his little fit. A dog being walked by a person is not surprised by a pull on the collar or a touch of the hand on the face, back or other commonly-touched area. But when he can see your hands and something addresses his rear area, it's going to *pop* him out of that obsessive focus.

That's how I see it, at least.  

 Because this happened at home outside our house and I was not paying attention to Hektor, but was focusing on moving the trash can I was caught by surprise by the event. Had it happened on a walk, when I was focused on reading the dogs and looking ahead I could have controlled him by voice and body blocks with very little if any leash. Maybe even a foot nudge, surely that is better than allowing him to fully engage and lunge in which case I have no recourse but to hold on and use the leash or let him go.

dgriego

ron2

So, maybe I should cook up a bunch of steak and we'll have a big, wide party.

 

 Only if you promise to strap one to your backside!!!!!

Okay, but I will have Shadow glued to my backside because he will go for the steak.

ron2

Okay, but I will have Shadow glued to my backside because he will go for the steak.

LOL thank you for your sense of humor Ron, I now have a visual that I cannot get out of my head of you at a BBQ with a steak and a large dog glued to your backside!

 I was also thinking we could use that as a test, you run across the yard with the steak and we check and see if the foot nudge works to distract the large dogs from chasing you, or will we have to use leash corrections?