Kicking the dog

It's the newest fashion - a backpack shaped like a large dog because it is a large dog. Fortunately, I'm really tall, so I could carry a big dog. I can run fast but Shadow leaves me in the dust. You're welcome to try the foot nudge but be prepared for a few guffaws if you fall on your keister. With a steak on my back, I might have more than one dog following me.

A huge problem with the kick used by CM is that it would be frighteningly easy to cause some serious injuries to the dog with this "method"

**kicks ron, steals his steak ;)

corgipower

**kicks ron, steals his steak

"I'm an air-conditioned gypsy. That's my solution . Watch the police and the tax man miss me, I'm mobile ..." - "Mobile" the Who.

Dgriego asked the question of how we would stop or retrain or recondition our dog from lunging after the skateboard if we weren't able to or willing to administer a collar correction, or possibly even a foot tap. And 4IC is probably accurate in that the foot tap or nudge is a distractor or interruptor since the dog is used to pulling in a flat collar and a collar pop would just feel like more of the game of chasing skateboards and would reinforce the behavior, since it is part of the game. Bonus points for how would we do it with a large breed dog capable of dragging a human down the street or field.

For some of us, such as myself, the answer is to limit or eliminate exposure to the stimulus until we have a way of changing the dog's focus to us with a cue, usually a command, usually trained with motivation. Then, slowly increasing exposure to it until we can have the dog paying attention to us, rather than the skateboard.

So the added condition might be, what about a dog that is so prey-driven that even previously successful rewards have no effect. If the dog responds to a touch cue to interrupt or watch me, okay. But the point is, the chasing of prey appears to be the highest reward. So, I have two choices, personally. Either lure him off that game with one of my own or limit exposure to the stimulus that makes him lock on so hard. Also, I would imagine, a dog that big and prey-driven is not for the average owner. I think of K-9 dogs that are trained specifically to run after humans and latch on and hold the bite until commanded to release. And they release because the reward is another game of tug with a rolled up towel.

FourIsCompany

Chuffy

I wonder WHY the "foot nudge" gets the response from the dog, that you would normally have to "yank" to achieve?

 

Well, the dog wears a collar most of the time. He is accustomed to the feel of it on his neck and the feeling of a person at the other end of the strap of leather that's connected to the collar. In most of these situations (like the dog who obsesses about skateboards), it is a common occurrence to have the person pulling against the dog on the lead. The dog pulls, the person pulls. It's all part of the game. The dog is used to this feeling. It's expected.

Like I said, it's just very different to what has been done before and so catches his attention. However, it would have to be used in moderation, because otherwise it loses it's efficacy.  Let's say, I get a pup and I "train" him using food (rewards) and foot nudges (corrections).  He starts going wild about skateboards and trying to eat them, which causes a danger to the child using the board and the foot nudge isn't working because it's been "worn out".  Along comes an imaginative and charismatic character who gives the dog a sharp tug on the lead and the dog stops dead in his tracks: "hey, wth was that??!!"  Cue critics, who say its inappropriate and could cause damage to the trachea etc....

FourIsCompany

It works because it's unexpected and in a place (the flank) that he is not comfortable being touched in the middle of his little fit. A dog being walked by a person is not surprised by a pull on the collar or a touch of the hand on the face, back or other commonly-touched area.

I think you are right.  Herein lies the danger I think.  These VERY things that could cause some dogs in some situations (and I'm not talking an isolated few "some";) to whip round and snap or bite.

Unfortuantely, CM's "celebrity" status earns him a deal of skepticism.  I, like others, wonder about the dogs he DIDN'T help.  The kind of stuff you "learn" from celebrity and TV... it's bias.  It's not the full picture and it is very hard to make an informed choice about whether you choose that method or not.

I agree with Ron. Why do people default to "corrections"?  If you have a dog who tries to attack skateboards, the most effective way to cure it is a systematic program of desensitization to skateboards, rewarding an alternative behavior in the presence of the stimulus, not giving collar-corrections, foot-corrections, verbal corrections, whatever. It's been repeatedly shown that giving corrections to a highly aroused reactive dog is generally either ineffective or counter-productive. Some dogs get so "locked on" to the object of their desire that the degree of force you'd have to administer for the punishment to be effective is inhumane; some dogs react to being corrected by becoming afraid of the object or something near the object (children?), and now you've traded your old problem in for a new problem.

Of course it's not any fun at all to watch someone work a dog through a systematic program of desensitization. It's boring to watch, it takes time (in our instant gratification society a big turnoff), and it's lot more fun to watch someone shove a dog with his feet for a few minutes and then declare the dog cured, and on to the next show.

mudpuppy

I agree with Ron. Why do people default to "corrections"?  If you have a dog who tries to attack skateboards, the most effective way to cure it is a systematic program of desensitization to skateboards, rewarding an alternative behavior in the presence of the stimulus, not giving collar-corrections, foot-corrections, verbal corrections, whatever. It's been repeatedly shown that giving corrections to a highly aroused reactive dog is generally either ineffective or counter-productive. Some dogs get so "locked on" to the object of their desire that the degree of force you'd have to administer for the punishment to be effective is inhumane; some dogs react to being corrected by becoming afraid of the object or something near the object (children?), and now you've traded your old problem in for a new problem.

Of course it's not any fun at all to watch someone work a dog through a systematic program of desensitization. It's boring to watch, it takes time (in our instant gratification society a big turnoff), and it's lot more fun to watch someone shove a dog with his feet for a few minutes and then declare the dog cured, and on to the next show.

Exactly.  I can't even imagine what I would have wound up with had I gone first to correction with a dog like Sequoyah.  Instead, I still have a highly reactive dog, but one that will default to the behavior I choose, and not the "locked on" behavior she was born with.  I really don't see why you wouldn't try to avoid correction if something else works just as well, even if it does take a bit more time and effort.

In the linked clip. CM impacts the dog with his feet 11 times. Just with the feet, just what you can see. I didn't count the leash pops. And there are scene edits to change from one camera angle to the next.

The best the kick is accomplishing, if that, is an interruptor. But it is not stopping the behavior. The behavior doesn't stop until the dog elects to remain still to avoid another kick. When the dog remains still to avoid another kick, that is. imo, -R. The dog learns to remain still by reinforcement. The reinforcement is the absence of the aversive for desired behavior.

So, it's okay to kick or foot tap your dog 11 times, maybe more, but it would be wrong to offer the dog a treat 11 times for an alternate behavior? Even though the dog learns or is "rehabilitated" by a reinforcement process, not a punisment process. If dogs learn or "rehabilitate" by reinforcement (some have called it avoidance training) why not try direct reinforcement for the desired behavior?

If the dog stopped the behavior after the first kick or two, that would be a punishment and any future sight of the skateboard might cause the dog to avoid it to avoid further aversive. The latter is, imo, -R. And so, the dog learns or changes or rehabs by reinforcement. Couldn't be more direct to simply reinforce the desired behavior.

Well, my opinion and $1.50 will get you a Diet Coke.

ron2

If dogs learn or "rehabilitate" by reinforcement (some have called it avoidance training) why not try direct reinforcement for the desired behavior?

Thats easy, because i dont like to do it that way 

espencer

ron2

If dogs learn or "rehabilitate" by reinforcement (some have called it avoidance training) why not try direct reinforcement for the desired behavior?

 

Thats easy, because i dont like to do it that way 

Bet you've never really tried it, either.   Otherwise, you would probably not be so flip about something that works for a lot of dogs when punishment doesn't.  Funny, you are all so interested in having people think you are a "whisperer".  Yet you persist in "shouting".

"most effective way to cure it is a systematic program of desensitization to skateboards, rewarding an alternative behavior in the presence of the stimulus, not giving collar-corrections, foot-corrections, verbal corrections, whatever. It's been repeatedly shown that giving corrections to a highly aroused reactive dog is generally either ineffective or counter-productive. Some dogs get so "locked on" to the object of their desire that the degree of force you'd have to administer for the punishment to be effective is inhumane; some dogs react to being corrected by becoming afraid of the object or something near the object (children?), and now you've traded your old problem in for a new problem. "    **************

 I have to agree with this rational mode of thought.  Dogs are just dogs. 

I think that you can see the anguish that the little bulldog is experiencing as she is being run along side this skateboard/child and her desire to get the board is not unusual for any puppy. Although she is older than a puppy, she has not been socialized (desensititzed) apparently with children or skateboards. 

So, ya,  a little time spent on that may be boring to watch on a tv, duh!  But by a long shot more effective, prudent and trustworthy with results.  Dogs that are raised well in a family of children, bicycles, jump ropes, and many many other toys will be gradually socialized to deal with the sounds the motion and movements of all things concerned. And whenever there is an idiosyncracy occurring, in the alert and concerned family, it would be seen right away and attended to. 

These "cases" that are on this show are just little blips in the life of this dog or any dog on the show. I feel very badly for some of these "pets" because they are being exposed to things on a precarious level, with a stranger dealing with her/him, and in sometimes a rougher fashion than people should be comfortable with.

Which brings you to why anyone would want to be seen on tv to show how inept that they are with their own dog. It is hard to see how some of these "owners" would ever possess the understanding of their own dog and care of this creature. 

The only way I could work through Gaci's super-high fascination with chasing cars while on leash (we're talking high prey drive to moving objects) here was by using the proper use of reward, and desensitization. She would hit the end of that leash at a gazillion miles an hour and not even feel/care when it jerked her backwards. She could flip herself on her back and get up to keep chasing. A dog in prey drive, especially like her, is not likely to respond to much in the way of kicking (sorry - foot tap) or collar pops. What she was doing to herself, in a normal situation would likely make her cry out and become very upset, but when it comes to hunting, she applied these things to herself and didn't even blink. So you could say I had to use distance, and reward, and play, to fix her issue. And you could also say that she was equally "surprised" when rewards starting appearing, and fun started happening, when cars drove by, when in the past they resulted in....nothing (since I would not punish for it).

dogslife

So, ya,  a little time spent on that may be boring to watch on a tv, duh! 

There's something huge to be said here. Work like CC&D is often quite boring. There's no exciting growl-fests, or chasing scenes, or dramatic adrenaline moments. It's all about calm and patience, and it wouldn't make the top charts. But on the other hand it is turning out to be so, so, so effective.

Kind of like that old saying about how wonderful science is - it's so wonderful, you get to sit there, be quiet, write lots of things down, do lots of math, time things, sit really still..........who wouldn't want to be a scientist?

Kim_MacMillan

Kind of like that old saying about how wonderful science is - it's so wonderful, you get to sit there, be quiet, write lots of things down, do lots of math, time things, sit really still..........who wouldn't want to be a scien

pant, pant, slobber, slobber ... I likes me some science and math. The hardest work I do is between my ears.

Yawn... I guess not everyone is cut out to be a dog handler.

If one doesn't know the difference between a tap and a kick, if any physical contact can only be equated (in one's mind) with physical abuse, then please, stick to the steak...and keep your dog away from kids to avoid any "accidental" bites.

For those who can communicate physically with their dogs, tap on.

Angelique

If one doesn't know the difference between a tap and a kick, if any physical contact can only be equated (in one's mind) with physical abuse, then please, stick to the steak

I've been accused of overreaching or exaggerating or dramatizing. But I think it's a stretch to say that a disagreement over use of the foot equals the exclusion of any physical contact as the desired goal. So, I imagine, the quip about not knowing the difference between a kick and a tap is for those of us who disagreed with CM's use of this technique.

Angelique

For those who can communicate physically with their dogs, tap on.

I guess I'm not qualified for doghandling, either, since I don't always have steak on me, current canard aside. I don't wish to tap my dog with my foot, which, by implication of the last statement, means that I can't physically communicate with my dog. But I have rubbed his fur with my toes. Does that count?

corgipower

A huge problem with the kick used by CM is that it would be frighteningly easy to cause some serious injuries to the dog with this "method"

I guess this is my big issue with it as well and I have not problem with using physical contact in various ways to communicate with dogs.  Maybe it's because I have a dog with physical issues, but that is the first thing I thought of when I saw the video.