Kicking the dog

corvus

There's no need that I can see why my dog should be comfortable with having feet coming at her.

Totally. A dog doesn't need to like feet, and a human doesn't need to use feet. 

I haven't seen the CM clip in person, so I can't comment on it, but I am not a fan of using feet on a dog in any negative way - where negative is determined by the dog. 

well, I can't find the clip anymore. It was from a fairly old episode. Sorry. Would love to do the "pick a clip and let's discuss" thing if someone would like to select one.

Here is a clip where Cesar uses his foot to get the dog's attention (it's at about 26 seconds and again around 1:20 and several times throughout the clip). I have seen him do this many times. For those of you who have a problem with this technique, or any of his techniques, I suggest you don't use them.

 It appears to be working to get her to stop going after the board. She is not interested in the child, but that object which is not such a bad problem. Having nothing to compare it to, not really sure if this technique has  staying power and  effective, once Cesar is out of the picture.

What other techniques might be employed to create a better behavior toward the skate board?

To me it looks like the dog is intrigued with the mobility of the board.  Like she would like to play with it. Ever see the clip from animal videos with the bull dog riding on a skate board, and actually running with it, propelling it by himself...Very neat.

espencer

spiritdogs

I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly.

Me, too.  I use my foot with Sequoyah - I hold my foot out and she "high fives" it.  The power of clicker training..

 Weird, you say in another thread that you use corrections sometimes

I just wanted to use this little exchange as an example of how what some of us say is not what others hear or see....  WHERE in the above exchange does Anne say she never uses corrections?  She has said (repeatedly actually) that she does use corrections from time to time, but also that she strongly feels they are over used and misused by most people.  She has never said that she "corrects" with her feet as far as I can recall.  And in saying: -

 I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly

 - she is not saying "I never use corrections". 

As far as I'm concerned, CM kicks dogs.  When I "nudge DH with my foot" under the dinner table to remind him of something, that's a kick.  It doesn't mean I have dislocated his patella or broken his shin.  But I've kicked him.  It's not attaching emotional baggage to the word.  Impact with the foot is a kick.  That's just how *I* think of it.  And probably a few others too. 

I block with my feet and legs.  I also pet with my feet (the animals are super foot warmers and sometimes I have my hands full of baby).  I've kicked the cat on numerous occasions, albeit accidentally.  I felt dreadful.  I wouldn't do it on purpose, but that's just me.  I think a dog has to be a looooooong way far gone before impact with the foot (whether you call it a kick, bump, tap poke or nudge) is necessary or desirable, but again that's just me. 

Now, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with CM's methods and I'm certainly not looking for an argument, I am going to pose a question though.

Why is it OK for a behaviorly challenged dog to scratch/claw/jump/lunge/bite/draw blood and not OK for a handler to tap it with his/her foot to redirect? Notice I said "tap" and not "kick", "clobber", "hit", "slap", "boot"- and it's because I meant "tap".

 FYI: I have never fulfilled any of CM's methods.

BlackLabbie

Why is it OK for a behaviorly challenged dog to scratch/claw/jump/lunge/bite/draw blood and not OK for a handler to tap it with his/her foot to redirect? Notice I said "tap" and not "kick", "clobber", "hit", "slap", "boot"- and it's because I meant "tap".

It isn't ok for a dog to hurt someone, and I'll happily tell that to any dog posting here on the forums.

BlackLabbie

Now, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with CM's methods and I'm certainly not looking for an argument, I am going to pose a question though.

Why is it OK for a behaviorly challenged dog to scratch/claw/jump/lunge/bite/draw blood and not OK for a handler to tap it with his/her foot to redirect? Notice I said "tap" and not "kick", "clobber", "hit", "slap", "boot"- and it's because I meant "tap".

 FYI: I have never fulfilled any of CM's methods.

It's not "ok" for a dog to do those things.  That's why we tell EVERYONE to TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN their dog! 

Thanks, Carla. I was having a heck of time finding it.

Chuffy

Impact with the foot is a kick.  That's just how *I* think of it.  And probably a few others too. 

That's how I was stating it earlier. And someone wished to differentiate the level of force used. In the linked video (Thanks, Carla), he is repeatedly using his foot and it is with enough force to move the dog. In some cases, I think the dog is laying down in response to the kick, so I can't exactly say he is kicking hard enough to knock her down. He also plainly states that this is how he rehabilitates, with correction. I do take issue with the notion that it is aggression. I, too, think the dog is just fascinated in the skateboard and wants to play with it.

Now, did I describe the kick earlier as fairly accurately? That is, he didn't kick hard enough to cause damage that I could see and certainly not hard enough for a 20 yard field goal. But he was impacting the dog with some force.

As Carla wisely said, if this technique is uncormfortable for a person to use, don't use it. I wholeheartedly agree. And in response to someone else's question as to why some people disagree with CM, this technique was one of the reasons, whether we determine the exact amount of newtons (a measurement of force) exerted, or not. There are some who think it is not necessary to do this to a dog for rehabilitation. Granted, it is a short-legged dog. But still, many of us think there is a better way. Or one that does not involve the use of the foot in such a manner.

ron2

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

?????? and your point is?

ron2

I do think it is interesting that you haven't seen every episode of who is obviously your favorite dog resource and quite possibly the only one you might happen to read or watch. This now means that there's two episodes I have seen that you haven't.

Actually i never said i didnt watch it, i just didnt feel like helping you

Chuffy

I also pet with my feet

As far as I'm concerned, you are kicking your dogs.

espencer

?????? and your point is?

Just that. You sometimes get what you ask for, which may spark others to also disagree with a CM method. And I figured that even with a linked clip, there would still be apologetics to defend CM's use of this method.

espencer

Actually i never said i didnt watch it, i just didnt feel like helping you

Yeah, cute. There's another episode that I and at least one other remember that you say you don't remember. But that would be another thread topic. And it would probably invite more disagreement with a CM method. Remember, this all grew out of me answering one person's question about why some don't follow CM or have issues with his methods. All I did was list some reasons. And it has, as usual, become another round of apologetics in his defense.

I find it interesting that when I had a problem with something Jean Donaldson did, no one that I recall refuted me, specifically. When I had an issue with something Ian Dunbar said about the Gentle Leader, no one debated me on that.

espencer

As far as I'm concerned, you are kicking your dogs.

I know this quip wasn't directed at me but someone else had suggested that level of force determined the difference between a nudge and a kick. If I may, how would you determine she is kicking the dog if she rubs the fur with her foot? I have done so, myself. Shadow laying on the floor and I reach over with a foot and, applying less pressure than I do with my hands, rub his fur with a foot.

Oh I agree, you need to train your dog. But, sometimes out of goodness of people's hearts they adopt an older, abused dog from a shelter who is now aggressive. So, it is extremely hard to just train that dog...it's alot easier said than done....

Moderator speaking...

The tone of this thread needs to remain civil. Intentionally trying to stir up folks, or push buttons, is not going to help this thread or any other, really.

Civil, respectful...and consider that this forum is not just for a select few, who hang out here...but any and all...keep them in mind when posting. Keep it constructive and useful.

Thanks

espencer

Chuffy

I also pet with my feet

As far as I'm concerned, you are kicking your dogs.