Kicking the dog

nfowler

OT, I know, but in response to you and Willowchow this well-meaning neighbor did a "Tsst" to my dogs while I was walking them last summer and they got all carried away looking for a cat, since cats "hiss" and they have never heard the "Tsst" before but they have heard a hiss.

I was embarrassed and had to quickly do the "Watch Me" to get them back on track.

 

Lol, I wonder what my two would do.   That is just so funny.  I love dogs. : )  I would not mind if someone said that to  my pups, but if anyone ever put their dirty foot on them I would not be laughing. 

I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly.

I never never correct Sasha physically. Physical corrections freak her out. I do touch her a lot, and that is probably because I am a touchy person. But I am careful not to over do touch - I pay attention to how she responds. I can poke her with my foot to get her attention, and that doesn't scare her or upset her. It isn't meant to, either.

Like so much in dog handling, the individual dog determines what is ok and what is not ok, and the handler chooses techniques that feel comfortable to her.  

I do have a bit of a problem with feet in that they are harder to control than hands. For me at least, I find it hard to have the kind of fine control I have over my hands (or my voice, for that matter) over my feet. I think Penny picks up on that because she often is a bit leery about feet coming towards her, although she's comfortable with it if I do it. She'd rather I use my hands, though. I guess a shaky person balancing on one foot and nudging an unsteady foot towards her doesn't fill her with confidence.  

I don't plan on arguing, so I'll just say it as I see it. I've seen him kick dogs. He says it's not a kick, but it's a kick. Maybe not a football-style kick (as I told Ron in private once), but a kick nonetheless. And it's not that hard to see the intensity behind his leg, a good observer can tell how forceful his kicks are. Some of them are quite minor and likely painless, but some of them are quite hard to be a "not kick". And unacceptable in behaviour modification of the sort that he is doing, IMO.

When it comes to the episode such as the Bull Terrier lacking a luster in life, and needing a boost, Cesar does fine. But when it comes to serious behavioural issues, just about everything he does I disagree with, so......without typing it out in detail to give myself room to be torn apart, I'll leave it at that.

Dog_ma

I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly.

I never never correct Sasha physically. Physical corrections freak her out. I do touch her a lot, and that is probably because I am a touchy person. But I am careful not to over do touch - I pay attention to how she responds. I can poke her with my foot to get her attention, and that doesn't scare her or upset her. It isn't meant to, either.

Like so much in dog handling, the individual dog determines what is ok and what is not ok, and the handler chooses techniques that feel comfortable to her.  

 agree with Dogma

 I use my hands and feet and body, sometimes walking two large dogs when one of them is 90+ lbs requires using your body to get attention or redirect the dog. I have never struck my dogs, nor have I kicked them although I have used my feet to get their attention.

 With that being said, I have watched most of CM's shows and although I may have missed some of the earlier episodes I have not missed hardly any in the last couple of seasons. I have never seen him "kick" a dog.

Espence, I was actually replying to mudpuppy's post, not the OP.  I think many of us are seeing different things when we watch TDW and I really think an objectivem polite debate over just one or two clips would be really illuminating.  Maybe it's time for another thread....

BCMixs

ron2

For the most part, I think this thread has gone better than I expected.

 

I agree, I think we've all been polite and respectful!  Pats on backs or verbal praise all around!     

 

ron2

 So, rather than training a watch me or move command, it's better to physically push on the dog?

 

I don't think it's better and I have worked on a watch me command.  But watch me doesn't really work for what I was trying to train at the time, which was, walk in front of me but don't pull.   And the physical tap came after verbal warnings which the stinker ignored and a collar correction and walking backwards and growling (me) and turning around several times to walk a different direction.  The toe tap to the tooshie was followed by a stern "Hey, Walk!" which was the command I was trying to teach.  Heel means beside me, military style.  Walk means you can walk in front, explore and sniff, relaxed, etc., but don't friggin pull on me!

 

ron2

But is that really necessary? Why not train a stay, even on leash? Why does every single thing have to be a physical impact of some sort?

I don't think every single thing needs to be a physical impact, certainly.  I don't even necessarily think it's necessary ever.  I just saw a thing on prison dog training and there was a service dog being trained with 100% verbal and 100% positive reinforcement, no corrections whatsoever, so of course, it can be done, but I don't know how.  I thought, at the time, wow, what do they do if the dog nips (like my BCs do) or jumps on people or tried to run away, etc.  Even the trainer said "It's really hard and takes alot of patience." and then rolled his eyes, so clearly it's a challenge.  And honestly, most people (including me) don't want to work that hard and he was dealing with a lab!    

 

ron2

To me, there's a difference between patting my dog on his ribcage and bumping his hindquarters with my 13's. And how does the dog see it?  It would seem that foot-tapping a dog you don't know, ala CM, while the dog is in an agitated state is a good way to get a bite. If the dog is not that atogonized, why not wave your hand and say something silly to get the dog's attention? Why does it have to be a tap or slight kick with the foot?

I think how the dog sees it is dependent on the dog and probably one of the #1 reasons why TDW comes with the warning not to use the techniques w/o a professional trainer's assistance.  Some people don't "read" dogs well and it could get them bitten.  I think a dog with aggression issues would need more than a 30 min TV show for help.  I don't think it's a good method of dealing with a dog that's agitated or one that you don't know and would prefer to use methods such as the Calming Signals or some methods detailed in Click to Calm which are both non-physical.  For me, it's similar to a leash correction and my way of telling my dog "Hey, that's strike #3" usually after a verbal warning, and a leash correction, and usually me reaching the point where I'm not willing to put up with much more.  Not unlike taking my teen by the shoulders (physically) and saying "That's ENOUGH!" when they're getting close to that point of punishment. 

It doesn't *have* to be a tap or kick with the foot, but I believe there are times when physical communication works better than words.  An analogy I especially like is the showing of love (hubba hubba LOL).  You *could* use only non-physical ways of showing your affection, but would it have the same impact?  

ron2

Along comes CM, who describes every single, and I do mean every single dog problem in terms of dominance and submission, ad nauseum.  

 

Nah, I disagree.  I've seen plenty of episodes where he's dealt with fearful dogs (probably noticed them more because that's the issue with one of my dogs) and it has dealt with building trust and respect and hasn't used any physical corrections or has only held the leash firmly while the dog has freaked out.  I think he does focus on "leadership" alot and exuding that air of authority with your dogs but I see that problem all over the place, with kids as well as dogs.  If they think they can get away with it or walk all over you, they usually will.  Some may choose to use only positive and redirecting techniques and that works great for them.  I tend not to be that type.  Although I use those methods first and most, they're not the only methods I use.

 

ETA: And now, this thread has me saying "Kick the baby." "Don't kick the baby." in South Park voices and wishing I could find the Cartman/CM episode on line since I've never seen it but hear about it all the time from my son! 

I don't think it's better and I have worked on a watch me command.  But watch me doesn't really work for what I was trying to train at the time, which was, walk in front of me but don't pull.   And the physical tap came after verbal warnings which the stinker ignored and a collar correction and walking backwards and growling (me) and turning around several times to walk a different direction.  The toe tap to the tooshie was followed by a stern "Hey, Walk!" which was the command I was trying to teach.  Heel means beside me, military style.  Walk means you can walk in front, explore and sniff, relaxed, etc., but don't friggin pull on me!

Why did you growl?  Were you angry, frustrated, annoyed, scared, did you want the dog further away from you, were you trying to play?   A growl is definately dog-language.... and these are the times a dog would growl right?

Would you concede that perhaps there was something amiss with the application of the other techniques before jumping to this one?  Just ONE collar correction is not likely to communicate to the dog that he was too far in front/pulling too hard.  Walking backwards also may not work unless you timed it well and allowed at couple of repetitions for the penny to drop.  I don't have a "command" for LLW.  I just walk and the dogs walk with me.  If they pull, walk suspended.  Usually, they WANT to walk, so they walk well.

BCMixs

It doesn't *have* to be a tap or kick with the foot, but I believe there are times when physical communication works better than words.  An analogy I especially like is the showing of love (hubba hubba LOL).  You *could* use only non-physical ways of showing your affection, but would it have the same impact?  

Isn't it strange that the showing of affection, gratitude, affection, delight etc. are all best when expressed physically?   Showing displeasure or even annoyance is the opposite of those things, so why should it not also make sense that they are best when NOT expressed physically?  Now say DH wasn't happy with me about something.  If he were to get "physical" with me to show his displeasure - even if it was only "gently", a token to send the message hone: "Don't do that" - my word but I would get pi$$y!  I wouldn't like that.  I would find it upsetting, degrading and disrespectful, regardless of the fact that it didn't "knock me off my feet" or send me "sailing 20 yards through the air".  Just a thought. 

BCMixs

Nah, I disagree.  I've seen plenty of episodes where he's dealt with fearful dogs (probably noticed them more because that's the issue with one of my dogs) and it has dealt with building trust and respect and hasn't used any physical corrections or has only held the leash firmly while the dog has freaked out.  I think he does focus on "leadership" alot and exuding that air of authority with your dogs but I see that problem all over the place, with kids as well as dogs.  If they think they can get away with it or walk all over you, they usually will.  Some may choose to use only positive and redirecting techniques and that works great for them.  I tend not to be that type.  Although I use those methods first and most, they're not the only methods I use.

Now, why can you not use positive methods with no physical correction AND "exude an air of leadership"?  Why do the two have to be mutually exclusive?  You know what, I don't think this "authoritive air" and physical corrections even GO together.  The truly authoritive person, with that enviable aura that we are speaking of, doesn't HAVE to get physical.  If they did, I would question the nature of their authority.
 

I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly.

Me, too.  I use my foot with Sequoyah - I hold my foot out and she "high fives" it.  The power of clicker training... 

spiritdogs

Me, too.  I use my foot with Sequoyah - I hold my foot out and she "high fives" it.  The power of clicker training

Now, that's a foot technique I would like to try. I wish I had thought of that.

My feet come to rest on my dogs all the time!  They make for wonderful foot rests.

ron2

Along comes CM, who describes every single, and I do mean every single dog problem in terms of dominance and submission

Well i can tell you that this is the SECOND statement where you are flat out WRONG, and like in my last post i have videos to prove it, so which video you wanna see first? the one where he proves that he does not use physical force every single time like you said or this one? 

ron2

Are you not the king of CM links? I don't keep up with them.

And why do i have to do your homework?, you are the OP, not me, i think it was a bad move not to give proof of what you are saying, do we have to believe what you say just because you say so? What if i tell you that the moon its made of cheese? i dont have proof of it but you will just have to believe me

spiritdogs

I think there is a difference between using your feet (or hands or whatever) as a correction or negative thing, and using them more benignly.

Me, too.  I use my foot with Sequoyah - I hold my foot out and she "high fives" it.  The power of clicker training..

 espencer, a lot of people use clicker training and corrections.  I don't see why training techniques are mutually exclusive...

I accidentally kicked Kenya today and I felt REALLY bad, I can't imagine kicking her on purpose.  It wasn't really a kick, but I was on my elliptical which has these foot pieces that shoot forward.  She came too close and she got a nudge before I could stop.  It wasn't hard enough to hurt, but she jumped, tucked her tail, and ran and hid under a desk.
 

Liesje

espencer, a lot of people use clicker training and corrections.  I don't see why training techniques are mutually exclusive

You are right, i just always thought that Spiritsdog was exclusive positive, 100% against any kind of corrections whatsoever 

As we've been discussing in other threads lately, there are punishments and then there are punishments and then there are almost-punishments, sometimes-punishments and conditional punishers. There are owner-administered punishments, environmental punishments, punishments so mild they barely make an impact on behaviour, and there's interuptors. Let's not play the "but you said once" game. It's tiresome and gets in the way of decent discussion. We all know where we all stand on general philosphy. There's really no need to keep tabs on members to make sure they're toeing the line of their dog philosophy or something.

As for feet, I've met a lot of animals that don't trust feet much. I somewhat regret with Penny that I have insisted on touching her with my feet when she didn't like it very much. There's no need that I can see why my dog should be comfortable with having feet coming at her. I sure as hell am not. And that takes care of kicks, nudges, attention-grabbing foot movements or whatever else you want to call them. My dog coming and lying next to my still feet or walking beside my feet is a whole different matter.

"There's no need that I can see why my dog should be comfortable with having feet coming at her. I sure as hell am not. And that takes care of kicks, nudges, attention-grabbing foot movements or whatever else you want to call them. "

 Agreed!

"My dog coming and lying next to my still feet or walking beside my feet is a whole different matter."

And if you did use your feet to nudge or kick, whatever intensity of directive you delivered to your dog by foot, there would probably not be a relaxed feeling from your dog to make him comfortable or desire to lay at your feet. Or enjoy a relaxed scritch scratch of your (clean) toes in his fur. 

espencer

And why do i have to do your homework?, you are the OP, not me, i think it was a bad move not to give proof of what you are saying, do we have to believe what you say just because you say so? What if i tell you that the moon its made of cheese? i dont have proof of it but you will just have to believe me

And I didn't include video links in the op, either. Be careful what you ask for. You might get it. I do think it is interesting that you haven't seen every episode of who is obviously your favorite dog resource and quite possibly the only one you might happen to read or watch. This now means that there's two episodes I have seen that you haven't.

And actually, it doesn't bother me any more that you say I haven't seen what I have seen.