Kicking the dog

ron2

I have seen Cesar kick a dog.

Could you provide a link please?

ron2

I gave the superlative comparison that he did not kick hard enough to make a 20 yard field goal. What I meant by that was that he is not kicking hard enough to cause physical damage, that I can see. You might call it a tap though it can make the dog move. That is, the dog moved slightly, from the impact.

If I were to tap you on your shoulder when you were not looking, would you move and look towards me? Or would this be called a slap, hit, punch?

We all know we can touch using our hands and fingers. Can feet be used to touch? Of course they can. I think some definitions would be in order here.

What is considered to be a tap from a foot and what would be considered a kick? Where is the fine line drawn? perhaps it is best to draw the line in terms of just how much movement a touch or a kick causes and because weight must be taken into account, maybe movement by percentage of body length or angular displacement could be used as a reference. Let the scientist in you step forth and define the difference.

*SECOND Moderator edit, content removed, rude, off topic*

tssst

 Whatever....

 If you don't like the move, don't use it on your dog, use your own methods, fine.  I've used it and gotten the dirty looks.  I've also used a heeling stick and also gotten dirty looks for tapping my dog's chest in order to let him know not to walk in front of me.  Mostly the dirty looks have been from people whose dogs have them out for a drag. 

I agree with tssst, I've had people yakking in line at the grocery store and back up and nearly walk on me.  I've tapped them on the shoulder and said "Excuse me".  Same with my dogs, I've tapped them with my foot and then said "Heel" or "Watch me" or whatever.  No difference in my mind.  I've even chucked my dog under the chin ala Monks of New Skete for being a brat and not paying attention.  My dog doesn't fear me, we have a great relationship and he behaves better than most dogs I see out and about with their owners.  They're not moves I use everytime I train with my dogs, and they're reserved for when other, non physical contact methods have failed, but they're in the repertoire. 

I heart Cesar!  I also heart Ian Dunbar!  So sue me.
 

For the most part, I think this thread has gone better than I expected.

So, we're going to define a tap with a foot is not a kick if it is merely a nudge. I can accept that. So, rather than training a watch me or move command, it's better to physically push on the dog? I'm not saying that physical touch won't ever happen and that we have all nudged our dogs at one time or another, sometimes just to get by them or we step into their space because we actually need to be where they are to get something. Difference is, for me, when I have done so, it is not a training move, it is simply me moving. I'm not going to list all the styles of armed and unarmed combat I have studied but I have fairly good control of my limbs. But it never occured to me to impact the dog with my foot for training.

Some history. When I was about 5 or 6, I kicked the babysitter's dog hard enough to make her, a GSD, yelp. I was fortunate that she did not bite me. However, by the time I was finished getting spankings from the babysitter and my mom and a good talking-to by everyone, I never, ever hit a dog again. Not with my fists, not with my feet.

So, like I said, CM didn't kick hard enough to create damage that I could see, and certainly not enough to knock the dog over, let alone sail through the air for 20 yards. But is that really necessary? Why not train a stay, even on leash? Why does every single thing have to be a physical impact of some sort?

To me, there's a difference between patting my dog on his ribcage and bumping his hindquarters with my 13's. And how does the dog see it? I know when Shadow is keyed up about another dog, I have merely touched him on his back or rump and he would jump around and see it was me and then return to facing the target. It would seem that foot-tapping a dog you don't know, ala CM, while the dog is in an agitated state is a good way to get a bite. If the dog is not that atogonized, why not wave your hand and say something silly to get the dog's attention? Why does it have to be a tap or slight kick with the foot?

I think a lot of people think that if the dog does not obey the first time or acts in a way that they don't like, they assume the dog is refuting their "authority." Along comes CM, who describes every single, and I do mean every single dog problem in terms of dominance and submission, ad nauseum. This resonates with a number of viewers who think and feel the same way. And in the interest of dominance, there is sometimes physical dominance. Hence, it is then easier to use physical means and ramp them up as necessary.

FWIW, I have seen CM do worse things than foot tap but that might be adifferent thread.

Well, to me, its not the action of Caeser, but the interpretation of the viewer that I fear.  A friend who I would qualify as an amazing mother of an autisic son wants to apply the CM method in her life. She asserts all is positively influenced, the "calm and assertive" approach is benefiting her and her son based upon what she learned about training her dog based on CM.  I have no reason to believe otherwise because her son is making amazing strides in school.  I am a special ed teacher, and professionally speaking, she advocates the absolute appropriate services for her son.

 As for her dog relationship with her dog?  Way too physical.  On topic, she completely utilizes the hands, ****the foot and leg as a poke, a prong, an interruptor to distract and draw focus.  She is demanding and insistent with this 2 year old BC mix that is both bright and VERY submissive.  My friends intentions may be honorable because of CM's programming and the results he seems to yield within that half hour but...trust me, she is so misguided.  I was so uncomfortable at her home.  She parroted demands on this dog one could have been reached with much gentler and simpler measures.  After the dog continued to submissively roll onto its side, I asked her reasonings for her approach.  Sadly, she applies training methods for things she has seen on the DW. 

I do not pass judgement on my friend.  I hope to "rehabilitate" her and her approach to training her beautiful and bright dog.  She treats her dog accordingly because she has learned an approach that works for others.  Unfortunately, she does not see the parallel with her son. Her son succeeds because she has crafted an individualized educational plan with the consult of professionals.  When it comes to her dog, she is lacking the ability to reason that her dog also requires an idividualized plan, and not one that appeals to the television masses. 

****I don't know the intensity of her kick or poke accordingly, but it caused the dog to be displaced.

Hi BCMixs,

This is exactly what I was speaking about. Thank you for illustrating the point:

BCMixs

I've had people yakking in line at the grocery store and back up and nearly walk on me. I've tapped them on the shoulder and said "Excuse me". Same with my dogs, I've tapped them with my foot and then said "Heel" or "Watch me" or whatever. No difference in my mind.

I tried this foot tapping thing with Willow once when she was focusing on another dog and not on me.  She spun around at me (which startled ME) and did a play bow and a zoom.  Apparently, she thought it was some kind of rough play invite. 

dogslife

It is take home education with the lack of sound educational background on both sides of the tv camera.

This is my problem with TV methods, I'll clear it up in one half hour.  My friend is a resounding example.  Smart, educated, intuitive, but sorely lacking in the wealth of knowledge to choose from.  Like most, she is very busy and occupied.  So she sees one example, applies it exclusively (after all, what else is bigger?) 

The result?  Hands on, overzealous training methods that do not apply to her dog's temperament, behaviour, and personality. 

It made me cringe.

Chuffy

Could you provide a link please?  I would be interested to see  

Ditto, if the OP could provide a video link showing that move, that would avoid having every single person here having their own picture of whats going on, any choose of terms provides a poor explanation of what it could really be, without a video i think this thread is useless, i have seen that "move" and i dont find it anywhere close to what a kick is, without a video is just one person's word against the other

ron2

Why does every single thing have to be a physical impact of some sort?

Come on Ron you really well know thats not true and i DO have videos for that as prove 

espencer

Ditto, if the OP could provide a video link showing that move, that would avoid having every single person here having their own picture of whats going on, any choose of terms provides a poor explanation of what it could really be, without a video i think this thread is useless, i have seen that "move" and i dont find it anywhere close to what a kick is, without a video is just one person's word against the other

Are you not the king of CM links? I don't keep up with them. I am relying on what I remember from actually watching the show on NGC. Not carefully selected video clips for the website but back in the wild and wooly days of season 1 or 2.

Just like, for example, the episode where he dealt with a dog that was afraid of running water. Me and one other person remember that episode but none of the CM fans do because it is a violent episode that doesn't do much good for CM's image as the expert. Yet people will defend him to the point of getting red ink. So, no, I wouldn't know where to find the video link for CM kicking a dog and they might not have it at the NGC website. But I do remember it from the original broadcast. In my opinion, the less I look at his "stuff" the better off I am. In spite of that, he's probably a nice guy, has done some great charity work, and gets people thinking about training, though, in my opinion, it is usually the wrong kind of training. And he can be entertaining and there are lighter episodes. I liked the one with the nervous Viszla. Just the same, it was suggested that the discussion of kicking the dog might be better suited in a thread of it's own. Is there anyone here saying that he has not kicked or tapped a dog with his foot?

ron2

For the most part, I think this thread has gone better than I expected.

 

I agree, I think we've all been polite and respectful!  Pats on backs or verbal praise all around!     

ron2

 So, rather than training a watch me or move command, it's better to physically push on the dog?

 

I don't think it's better and I have worked on a watch me command.  But watch me doesn't really work for what I was trying to train at the time, which was, walk in front of me but don't pull.   And the physical tap came after verbal warnings which the stinker ignored and a collar correction and walking backwards and growling (me) and turning around several times to walk a different direction.  The toe tap to the tooshie was followed by a stern "Hey, Walk!" which was the command I was trying to teach.  Heel means beside me, military style.  Walk means you can walk in front, explore and sniff, relaxed, etc., but don't friggin pull on me!

ron2

But is that really necessary? Why not train a stay, even on leash? Why does every single thing have to be a physical impact of some sort?

I don't think every single thing needs to be a physical impact, certainly.  I don't even necessarily think it's necessary ever.  I just saw a thing on prison dog training and there was a service dog being trained with 100% verbal and 100% positive reinforcement, no corrections whatsoever, so of course, it can be done, but I don't know how.  I thought, at the time, wow, what do they do if the dog nips (like my BCs do) or jumps on people or tried to run away, etc.  Even the trainer said "It's really hard and takes alot of patience." and then rolled his eyes, so clearly it's a challenge.  And honestly, most people (including me) don't want to work that hard and he was dealing with a lab!    

ron2

To me, there's a difference between patting my dog on his ribcage and bumping his hindquarters with my 13's. And how does the dog see it?  It would seem that foot-tapping a dog you don't know, ala CM, while the dog is in an agitated state is a good way to get a bite. If the dog is not that atogonized, why not wave your hand and say something silly to get the dog's attention? Why does it have to be a tap or slight kick with the foot?

I think how the dog sees it is dependent on the dog and probably one of the #1 reasons why TDW comes with the warning not to use the techniques w/o a professional trainer's assistance.  Some people don't "read" dogs well and it could get them bitten.  I think a dog with aggression issues would need more than a 30 min TV show for help.  I don't think it's a good method of dealing with a dog that's agitated or one that you don't know and would prefer to use methods such as the Calming Signals or some methods detailed in Click to Calm which are both non-physical.  For me, it's similar to a leash correction and my way of telling my dog "Hey, that's strike #3" usually after a verbal warning, and a leash correction, and usually me reaching the point where I'm not willing to put up with much more.  Not unlike taking my teen by the shoulders (physically) and saying "That's ENOUGH!" when they're getting close to that point of punishment. 

It doesn't *have* to be a tap or kick with the foot, but I believe there are times when physical communication works better than words.  An analogy I especially like is the showing of love (hubba hubba LOL).  You *could* use only non-physical ways of showing your affection, but would it have the same impact?  

ron2

Along comes CM, who describes every single, and I do mean every single dog problem in terms of dominance and submission, ad nauseum.  

Nah, I disagree.  I've seen plenty of episodes where he's dealt with fearful dogs (probably noticed them more because that's the issue with one of my dogs) and it has dealt with building trust and respect and hasn't used any physical corrections or has only held the leash firmly while the dog has freaked out.  I think he does focus on "leadership" alot and exuding that air of authority with your dogs but I see that problem all over the place, with kids as well as dogs.  If they think they can get away with it or walk all over you, they usually will.  Some may choose to use only positive and redirecting techniques and that works great for them.  I tend not to be that type.  Although I use those methods first and most, they're not the only methods I use.

ETA: And now, this thread has me saying "Kick the baby." "Don't kick the baby." in South Park voices and wishing I could find the Cartman/CM episode on line since I've never seen it but hear about it all the time from my son! 

OT, I know, but in response to you and Willowchow this well-meaning neighbor did a "Tsst" to my dogs while I was walking them last summer and they got all carried away looking for a cat, since cats "hiss" and they have never heard the "Tsst" before but they have heard a hiss.

I was embarrassed and had to quickly do the "Watch Me" to get them back on track.

Oh, Nancy that had me laughing so hard. . .I can just picture it! 

She'd just watched it on TV, and had called her daughter to ask how that "tsst" method works on her dogs and her daughter loves using it, and so she just had to try it out and I guess my two were the ones to have that happen to. She said, afterward, that she couldn't figure out what went wrong since she sees how it immediately calms a dog down.

Having two  45lb terrier mixes pull in opposite directions when you aren't expecting it is, well, laughable. (Not at the moment, of course, but later.)

On a more serious note, I think some dogs can take some nudging and some can't or won't. I used to swing one way and then the other with my belief on that, given that I've had hands-on and hands-off training classes. I tend to not be a physical person anyway and I like asking them to do something rather than touching/nudging/kicking. And I have disabled dogs, so I tend to be more hands off. I know my male can't move as fast, and it's like he knows it, too, so I walk around him rather than make him move and I have worked really hard to use commands and not my hands (nice rhyme) or feet. With my hound years ago? Giving her corrections (even a nudge here and there) didn't seem to phase her and it got me wondering what's different in my house now.

Interestingly enough, I was reading up on terriers in this new book called "When Pigs Fly" and I really like what the author said there. She said that some dogs (she mentioned Labs and Retrievers but to that I'll add my hound) can take some physical training and still be hooked into his/her handler and some can/will not. My female terrier is so flipping independent anyway that, when I did more physical training with her, she would avoid me, and avoid me well, for a LONG time after a physical correction, but she'll happily do what I ask when I use the clicker or commands she's well-versed in. Some of the more physical trainers/handlers I've known have Labs and Retrievers and those dogs seem pretty good-natured and fairly dependent on their handlers anyway, so physical training doesn't seem to phase them. They still want to walk even if they get a foot slapped in front of them (so that they learn to stay in line or turn the corner by checking on the handler). My female would sit instead, which was so frustrating, especially in front of people.  

She'll happily (and easily) sleep in the other room if she feels any weird vibes between us . . .

Anyway, that bit of reading certainly gave me something to think about--another shade of gray on ways to train for me there . . .

BCMixs

But watch me doesn't really work for what I was trying to train at the time, which was, walk in front of me but don't pull.   And the physical tap came after

And thank you for a thoughtful, honest reply. I, too, have LLW and a tight heel trained without any corrections whatsoever with my dog, who's ancestry says to pull hard in front, as fast as you can. But that, indeed, would be another thread. I, too, in times past, would let my patience run short. Darn it, I made a video of us doing it but, at a couple of minutes, I'm not sure if it's too long, or what, as I have had a time trying to upload it.

I'm not against touch cues. They would especially be necessary with a blind dog, just as visual cues would be necessary with a deaf dog and a combo of both might be necessary with a healthy, independent dog. Mine's independent, by breed. Bred to run in front and heed a command but also to have good instincts and follow them, if necessary.

Might I also suggest some things. Watch the show with the sound off. Then watch the show with the sound on and your eyes closed. One of the best episodes I did see was where Virginia Madsen and her son were wanting to adopt another dog. Two were brought in. One fit in immediately and the other one started causing problems. Instead of going into his usual spiel, he simply suggested taking the easy fit dog. That was cool. And hey, it was Ms. Madsen. I think she's cool and her brother, Michael, does the narration on Animal Precinct, in addition to his regular acting work.