Kicking the dog

Someone once said, if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't.

 The only reason I would put a foot on a dog would be if it were attacking me. 

Although when Cesar puts a foot on his dog that he is trying to train, it appears the dog begins to change behavior to what Cesar is trying to get from him.  But it does not look right. 

The misinterpretation of what we think as an audience being entertained down to what a person at home feels he needs to do to get his dog to behave beautifully to the eye ... 

That lack of real rationale and ability to explain the psche of this kind of "dog psychology" is having no ethical or structural basis- in terms of theory, sound educational backing and proof of case studies with all of what true research involves and or implies.

 So, my vote is a big thumbs down on kicking, tapping and shoeing a dog in any manner by an educator on a tv. 

Whether the "kick" is a kick, a tap, a poke, or what, it is certainly rude.  How would a human like it if, instead of saying "excuse me" or "would you please take a seat", someone just came up and rapped you to make you move?  Dogs are fully capable of learning to move out of the way of a human, sit, lie down, heel, or any other request, via training, not physical manipulation. This manner of dealing with dogs is primitive at best, and injurious at worst.  I am wondering, since we have quite a few posters here who seem to overlook the CM disclaimer and "try these methods at home" (how quickly did they all jump on the flirt pole episode when many had never even heard of one before?), how quickly some people would try this "kick" thing and carry it a bit too far with a pushy dog.  Humans, I'm afraid, are not known for their patience with other species all the time.  IMO, the best policy is always to try non-invasive, non-physical methods first.  When you do that, you often find that the other things are completely unnecessary. 

A big red flag to me is many with a lack of any dog instinct ...  will do it.  Just to get some power/control and feel like they are in charge. 

Monkey see monkey do. 

People that observe behaviors copy them, whether they consciously recognize it or not.  It is nature.

spiritdogs

Whether the "kick" is a kick, a tap, a poke, or what, it is certainly rude. 

I don't watch CM's show religiously but I have seen him use the 'kick'. The only time I have seen him do this is when he is walking the dog and he needs to redirect his attention. For example, a DA dog that is lunging towards other dogs on the street. The kick appears to break the focus off the approaching dog and back onto the handler. From my observation I would describe the action more as a 'touch'  than a kick. I think the same result could be accomplished by a touch on the snoot which I occasionally do when walking my dog, or a "hey!" or any other attention getting technique - non of which I consider rude.

spiritdogs

How would a human like it if, instead of saying "excuse me" or "would you please take a seat", someone just came up and rapped you to make you move?  Dogs are fully capable of learning to move out of the way of a human, sit, lie down, heel, or any other request, via training, not physical manipulation.

I have never actually seen CM use his foot to get a dog "move out of the way", only to redirect or break his focus while on leash. But as I said I have not seen every show so I stand to be corrected if that is the case.

spiritdogs

 I am wondering, since we have quite a few posters here who seem to overlook the CM disclaimer and "try these methods at home", how quickly some people would try this "kick" thing and carry it a bit too far with a pushy dog.  Humans, I'm afraid, are not known for their patience with other species all the time.  IMO, the best policy is always to try non-invasive, non-physical methods first.  When you do that, you often find that the other things are completely unnecessary. 

You are right, there are a lot of dumb, impatient, idiot humans and maybe it would just be safer and easier to gear all training methods to the lowest denominator. LOL 

" it would just be safer and easier to gear all training methods to the lowest denominator. LOL "

 Well, the initial behaviors of the ignorant are usually physically abusive, as well as verbal.   

Ever see a parent with that kind of reactionary behavior to a child? 

There is no shortage of bullying adults in the world.

**Editing my post because I finally got to read the thread**

It appears that some agree a tap is okay to grab attention and regain focus (almost like a pull of a leash?)

When Kay was a pup I would motion her with my hands for tricks (sit, down, etc) and motion her with my legs for direction and "barrior" (like okay stop, waiting, can come over here yet) and I sometimes would push her butt over a little bit. Is that considered the "rude" part?

If CM is doing what people are saying like a "hey!" with a tap to the hind legs or I've seen him do that touch to the neck I find the dogs to become very focused and responsive right after. Dog verses dog they are very physical and use body language to talk so maybe this is just what he is demonstraiting??

I could never "kick" my own dog she's so tiny, but I have gotten down on her level told her to sit and been like "hey... kayla... focus" and she'll make eye contact with me and we'll try again.

denise m

spiritdogs

Whether the "kick" is a kick, a tap, a poke, or what, it is certainly rude. 

 

I don't watch CM's show religiously but I have seen him use the 'kick'. The only time I have seen him do this is when he is walking the dog and he needs to redirect his attention. For example, a DA dog that is lunging towards other dogs on the street. The kick appears to break the focus off the approaching dog and back onto the handler. From my observation I would describe the action more as a 'touch'  than a kick. I think the same result could be accomplished by a touch on the snoot which I occasionally do when walking my dog, or a "hey!" or any other attention getting technique - non of which I consider rude.

spiritdogs

How would a human like it if, instead of saying "excuse me" or "would you please take a seat", someone just came up and rapped you to make you move?  Dogs are fully capable of learning to move out of the way of a human, sit, lie down, heel, or any other request, via training, not physical manipulation.

 

I have never actually seen CM use his foot to get a dog "move out of the way", only to redirect or break his focus while on leash. But as I said I have not seen every show so I stand to be corrected if that is the case.

spiritdogs

 I am wondering, since we have quite a few posters here who seem to overlook the CM disclaimer and "try these methods at home", how quickly some people would try this "kick" thing and carry it a bit too far with a pushy dog.  Humans, I'm afraid, are not known for their patience with other species all the time.  IMO, the best policy is always to try non-invasive, non-physical methods first.  When you do that, you often find that the other things are completely unnecessary. 

You are right, there are a lot of dumb, impatient, idiot humans and maybe it would just be safer and easier to gear all training methods to the lowest denominator. LOL 

Well said Denise!

I don't agree with everything Cesar does, I wouldn't use the kick to get my dogs attention - mainly because I would probably fall on my butt!  Not because I think my dog is going to be psychologically damaged or physically abused – I would never do anything to my dogs that I thought would affect them psychologically or physically.   I don't Cesar does either.

BUT I can agree that there is a world full of idiots watching Cesar that would!  This is the problem with teaching a training method that can be misused openly to the general public.  

Just because "the initial behaviors of the ignorant are usually physically abusive, as well as verbal." does not mean all physical correction/manipulation or verbal corrections are abusive. Would you make a blanket statement that no parent should ever use any physical force on their child because some parents go too far? If a child refuses to leave a playground is it abusive to physically pick them up and put them in the car? Even if you believe there are better ways to handle the situation, it does not mean it is abusive.

I just don't understand why anyone that uses any kind of physical manipulation is thrown into the "abusive" category.  

"I wouldn't do it to my own dog"

Right!  And as far as teaching the general public about the complex mental issues with these abused/neglected/possible physiologically distressed animals...It is about one thing.  Making money.

If a doctor had his own show and exposed the mental issues of his clients and proceeded to show you how he fixed them, it would be against his boards and he would be facing serious charges.  There are good reasons.

The common thing that relates here is that it is not a healthful teaching, to proceed to educate and yet disclaim that full show of teaching.  Even a decent smarter person will be inclined to copy/emulate the teachings.  It is human nature.

In theory of an degreed education, each step is going to be a well taught and understood, principles, rationale, potential outcomes...Time is important to bring students full circle. A professional always assumes accountability for his/her actions within his/her profession.  The boards of the state you operate are a protection to the clients.

Although Cesar is not afraid and does see things wrong with his clients inability to deal with/ and sees the dog's lack of behavior...The viewing population can see it too.  It is take home education with the lack of sound educational background on both sides of the tv camera.

That is what I see as a gigantic problem with The Dog Whisperer.

denise m

Just because "the initial behaviors of the ignorant are usually physically abusive, as well as verbal." does not mean all physical correction/manipulation or verbal corrections are abusive. Would you make a blanket statement that no parent should ever use any physical force on their child because some parents go too far? If a child refuses to leave a playground is it abusive to physically pick them up and put them in the car? Even if you believe there are better ways to handle the situation, it does not mean it is abusive.

I just don't understand why anyone that uses any kind of physical manipulation is thrown into the "abusive" category.  

  

 Some people think so.  And i have to say having seen it in the store, the lazyness of the parent wrenching a childs arm (which does cause dislocation) or the simple yelling at a child in a public place displays some real ignorance.  And yes it is usually abusive.  What is the reaction of the child?  What is the anger level of that parent? Was there somethings a parent could do before this kind of escalation? 

Picking up a child is not abuse. That is a perfect behavior toward a child.  But not by the arm. or any other extremity.

 But kicking a child would certainly enter that category.  And it is against the law. Even if it were a light hearted tap on the behind, it would be looked at in poor light.  Would anyone do that to a child in good conscience?

LOL LOL LOL. I kick my kid. Really, I do! Not in a mean way. She loves to wrestle, she has a high need for physical stimulation, and she thinks it is HILARIOUS when I (lightly) kick her. I'm sure I've done it in public, because I don't think of it as something bad. I will also block her with my feet, or nudge her to get her attention.

Like I will with a dog who doesn't find it threatening.

I don't think I would use my feet or legs on a dog I didn't know well, because I wouldn't know if the dog had prior bad experience with feet or didn't like much touch, but I do use my feet on Sasha all the time and she is fine with it. Sasha is picky about how she is touched, and I don't handle her in ways she dislikes. Not with my feet, hands, or whatever. The only exception being that I have been working for a long time on hug-desensitization, to reduce the chance that she bites some fool kid who manages to slip past me and grab her. She doesn't like being hugged by me, but she isn't freaked out by it either and she is growing increasingly comfortable with it.

I don't think the actual body part matters. It is how it is used, and how it is perceived by the one being touched.

Dogslife, I think you are being a wee bit judgmental about parents and kids. Some parents yell too much, and that's no good, but even the gentlest of parents loses it and yells sometimes. I always like to give a stranger the benefit of the doubt, that this was a bad day etc.  

I try not to pick my child up against her will unless I absolutely have to. "Have to" for me means safety, or the preservation of other people's rights. But I won't pick her up just because she's dawdling and we're late. She finds it violating to be picked up against her will.

denise m

spiritdogs

Whether the "kick" is a kick, a tap, a poke, or what, it is certainly rude. 

 

I don't watch CM's show religiously but I have seen him use the 'kick'. The only time I have seen him do this is when he is walking the dog and he needs to redirect his attention. For example, a DA dog that is lunging towards other dogs on the street. The kick appears to break the focus off the approaching dog and back onto the handler. From my observation I would describe the action more as a 'touch'  than a kick. I think the same result could be accomplished by a touch on the snoot which I occasionally do when walking my dog, or a "hey!" or any other attention getting technique - non of which I consider rude.

spiritdogs

How would a human like it if, instead of saying "excuse me" or "would you please take a seat", someone just came up and rapped you to make you move?  Dogs are fully capable of learning to move out of the way of a human, sit, lie down, heel, or any other request, via training, not physical manipulation.
 

 

I have never actually seen CM use his foot to get a dog "move out of the way", only to redirect or break his focus while on leash. But as I said I have not seen every show so I stand to be corrected if that is the case.

spiritdogs

 I am wondering, since we have quite a few posters here who seem to overlook the CM disclaimer and "try these methods at home", how quickly some people would try this "kick" thing and carry it a bit too far with a pushy dog.  Humans, I'm afraid, are not known for their patience with other species all the time.  IMO, the best policy is always to try non-invasive, non-physical methods first.  When you do that, you often find that the other things are completely unnecessary. 

You are right, there are a lot of dumb, impatient, idiot humans and maybe it would just be safer and easier to gear all training methods to the lowest denominator. LOL 

What I don't understand is this almost pathological need to defend this guy.  Why would you not consider redirecting the dog with a command, rather than with a kick?  Maybe because 98% of the pet owning public doesn't train their dogs.  His easy fix is preferable to them.  Rather than expend any time, energy or practice, they want the dog to "mind" no matter what, and if someone comes along who can make the dog do so, the end justifies the means.  JQP's first question about classes is usually "How much is it?", not "What methods do you use?" - pretty sad for the dogs.

There are easier, and better ways to get a dog redirected, especially for certain handlers.   I, for one, would never want a child to learn that "kicking" a dog is ok - nor would I want an elderly owner to try it and go face down on the asphalt. 

FWIW, I have not seen CM move a dog out of the way with a kick either.  I was just using that example to state that dogs can be trained to do various maneuvers - to get out of the way, to be redirected, to go left or right on an agility course, to default to making eye contact with the handler, or any of a number of other things that help the human direct the dog's attention.  If all you do is the kick, the dog has only learned to avoid it, again use of punishment (a punishment is anything that reduces the likelihood that the dog will do the behavior again), instead of reinforcement of alternative behaviors that accomplish the same thing, but with a different philosophy of making the dog generally more receptive to learning.  After all, if learning is fun, you stay interested, if it isn't....boredom or apathy set in. 

I would never suggest, or even try, physically touching a dog who is focused on something else and is possibly reactive- cause it's dangerous. It's not abusive, it's dangerous. Very high chance of the dog whipping around and biting before realizing it's you. There's a clip of CM on youtube of him almost getting bitten by a border collie after he did his stupid finger-poke thing that I thought was very illustrative of how stupid and dangerous this so-called "training technique" is. The clip goes on to show the owner repeatedly shoving the dog with her feet. The dog did not appear to be happy. Good thing the dog had lightening reflexes and good manners or CM would have been bleeding.

Could you provide a link please?  I would be interested to see