Food Rewards - For and against..

I am cautious about saying "never", but hugs are not often bestowed in our house.  My dogs love to snuggle but are not huge on hugs.  If I open my arms, now and then they get filled with dog, but it is at THEIR option.  For the most part, each and every one of them would prefer a good snuggle to an actual hug.

I've never, and I will say that word here, given a foster a big hug for sitting.  And I sure don't raise my voice to them.   I too carry some gsd scars from many years ago and I'd rather not risk any more.

I have one of each type of dog.  Pru LOVES hugs if she knows and trusts you.  She will fall to the floor and close her eyes if you hug her.  JJ, OTOH will snarl at anyone who even tries to hug him.  Even with me, If I try to hug him I will usually get a low, barely audible warning growl that he is very unhappy with that type of action.   

I can't post the pictures directly because they are protected by copyright, but on this page: http://www.magpielanekennels.com/tarka.htm there is a nice example of what people are sort of saying with the hugs. Near the bottom of the page are two photos side by side of the dog (Tarka). The one on the left shows Tarka in quarantine meeting his owner for the first time. You can see how his ears are pinned back and he's reaching with his nose towards the person's face. I think. I think the person is just scratching his chin, not holding it up. On the right is a picture of the same dog being hugged by another person he has just met for the first time. His ears are at the sides coming to little points and his head is turned away from the person. His mouth is also tightly closed. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like he's happy to receive chin scratches from complete strangers, but not all that comfortable with hugs from complete strangers.

Lapphunds are complete snugglebums one and all, and the few I've met have encouraged hugs from me, but side on hugs with an arm over their shoulders rather than front on embraces with both arms. My dog will tolerate both, but looks the way Tarka does in the picture of him being hugged if someone comes at her front ways with both arms. She has sought that kind of hug from me only when she's been in a lot of pain.

Incidentally, it doesn't help Tarka's sense of security to be held off the ground, either, and that could well be accounting for all of the tension and anxiety in his body language.  

I'm wondering what kind of bond one gets from constantly forcing a dog to accept an aversive act from a human who thinks it's a positive experience for the dog and tries to use it as a reward. Then one thinks about the most common reasons dogs seem to not be food motivated- stress comes to mind.

Dogs often seem to get trained despite their owners. Very adaptable creatures.  

spiritdogs

Do you know how to tell whether your dog likes to be hugged?  Hug him.  If he turns his head away from you, it's a pretty sure sign that he'd rather not interact in that way.

That is slightly on the incorrect side.......some dogs don't like face to face interaction.......as it is with Ronin.....I mentioned he likes to sit between my legs and enjoys being held...but, he sits with his side or back to me.....I have had enough interaction with strange dogs to know not to interact with a dog face to face......

mudpuppy

Dogs often seem to get trained despite their owners. Very adaptable creatures.  

Yep, example competitive sports or in the showring.......dogs surely accept a lot from their owners in those situations.....

I wonder what it is about a hug that so many dogs find aversive?  If Thor is on my bed he'll be right next to me, snuggled as close as he can get, sharing my pillow even, but if I put an arm around him in my sleep, he leaves.  And, admittedly, sometimes I'll put an arm around him to GET him to leave if I'm too warm for the added heat of a doggie furnace.

It seems to me, that at least with my crew, if it is their CHOICE to walk into my open arms, they are fine with it and even enjoy the contact, but if I were to initiate a hug without giving them a choice, they'd certainly tolerate it, but probably not enjoy it.

There is a lot of touching going on in my home, loving hands are always available here.  But sometimes, they get an elbow or a forearm or some part of me that isn't covered in paint, or goo, or whatever I happened to be into at the time.  I never turn away a dog who wants my love, regardless of what I'm doing at the moment.  So it isn't as if my dogs are used to, comfortable with and desirous of my touch....but hugs are on a whole different level, and not something that they often actively seek.

mudpuppy

I'm wondering what kind of bond one gets from constantly forcing a dog to accept an aversive act from a human 

I wouldn't assume that a hug is aversive and I wouldn't assume that people force it. In fact, I never force a hug on them. They are the ones asking for it.  

corvus

Incidentally, it doesn't help Tarka's sense of security to be held off the ground, either, and that could well be accounting for all of the tension and anxiety in his body language.  

And the fact that she has him "sitting" on his back with his feet stuck out in front. Ugh! Poor dog! LOL He's a cute thing! There are so many things wrong there, IMO, I'm not sure we can attribute his body language to being hugged. 

snownose

some dogs don't like face to face interaction

B'asia and Mia are both like this. With Mia, she finds it easier not to lick if she's facing away, but she will come up and situate herself between my legs, turn herself so she's facing out and really get into a hug from behind! When I'm sitting, if I open my arms to either Shepherd, they will jump up with their front feet and put their head on my shoulder and just relax there for a hug. Many times, they'll indicate that they want to get completely up in my lap and most times, I oblige. Jaia even has a special maneuver he does that presents his body to me for a side hug. Cara isn't so much into hugs from me, but she LOVES it when her daddy holds and hugs her.

I don't know why some dogs don't like it, but I imagine it has something to do with exposure. I'm a very physical person and I held and hugged them a lot when they were puppies. And I don't mean squeezing to hurt their ribs, I mean a soft envelopment of love in my arms. I am certain they can feel the energy as well and it's probably very pleasant to them. For mine, it's affection... Not at all aversive.

How did this turn from food rewards to a debate on hugging?  

 I guess if I want my relationship with my dogs to be like a dog-to-dog relationship, I would bark at them, paw at their face, and sniff their private parts.  But I want my relationship to be human-to-dog and that to me is a mixture of what WE like to do together, some humanlike and some doglik.  So I let my dogs stick their nose in my ear and sniff.  They let me give them a tickle and an embrace. I am now conscious of the hugging and since yesterday I find I do it often to all the dogs.  That is my greeting and the dogs have learned this and I see no evidence of displeasure but good anticipation and satisfaction afterwards.  I am glad there is no food involved.  Its too bad others see this as force and discourage strengthening the bond with their pet. I do believe the stronger the bond the higher the life value of the dog and the higher the life value of the dog, the better care the dog receives.

Cita

How did this turn from food rewards to a debate on hugging?  

Maybe because some people think of it as an alternative form of reward that they use if they don't want to use food?  I don't know, but your point is well taken that the thread has drifted a bit.

 DPU, if you have a rescue dog that you pretty much trust not to bite, but that jumps up, just for spits and giggles, try sniffing the side of his face while you let him sniff yours.  See what happens.  I tried this once, and the dog quit jumping up;-))   Fascinating.  And, um, no, I didn't have to progress to the inguinal or butt sniffs!

 I skip the private part sniffing, but I incorporate a lot of dog communication techniques. I'm pretty sure Sasha still knows I'm not a dog.

snownose

mudpuppy

Dogs often seem to get trained despite their owners. Very adaptable creatures.  

Yep, example competitive sports or in the showring.......dogs surely accept a lot from their owners in those situations.....

FourIsCompany

I don't know why some dogs don't like it, but I imagine it has something to do with exposure. I'm a very physical person and I held and hugged them a lot when they were puppies. And I don't mean squeezing to hurt their ribs, I mean a soft envelopment of love in my arms. I am certain they can feel the energy as well and it's probably very pleasant to them. For mine, it's affection... Not at all aversive.