Food Rewards - For and against..

ha, my dogs are SO food motivated it's not even funny. I'm totally for training with food. I pick out nutritious stuff though to use as food rewards so that my dogs aren't getting fat. 

Jewlieee

ha, my dogs are SO food motivated it's not even funny. I'm totally for training with food. I pick out nutritious stuff though to use as food rewards so that my dogs aren't getting fat. 

But why are they motivated by food?  Can you reflect back to see if it was by your own actions or advise from others?

DPU

But why are they motivated by food?  Can you reflect back to see if it was by your own actions or advise from others?

Why does it have to be a result of some specific action?  Why does there even have to be a "why"?  The fact, and yes it is a fact, is that many of us have dogs like this, and to deny this part of their personality would be unfair to the dog, provided it is done intelligently and judiciously. 

"create hunger", nope...never had to. It's always there...always.

No issue here with food rewards, unless they are abused to the point that the animal becomes OBESE...and I don't consider most important commands at will tricks either. Especially things like come when called.

No, there's no one incident or advice from others that created a food motivated dog. My dogs just think with their stomachs and noses. Always have. 

yep..when an entire breed like mine for ex...can be characterized as "food motivated" I think the "why" becomes moot. It's nothing you will change...ever...it simply is. Understanding why, is simple when you understand their intent as a breed...and why they chase the rabbit.

Once you get past the why and get into "how can I use this"...that's when the good fun begins, for dog and owner both.

Just as a side note, I do look for what motivates the dog and use that for training. For example, some dogs just aren't food motivated as much as they are toy motivated or affection motivated. The new rescue I just got seems to be more affection motivated than food motivated. She'll do anything for attention/affection.

I'm also working on getting Neiko to be more toy motivated for frisbee and agility competition purposes, but that's a work in progress and takes training by itself.

I use food as a reward and it has nothing to do with the dog's level of food motivation.  It has to do with the fact that to charge a clicker/marker you need to be able to rapid-fire click/reward and I do not know of any other reward that works.  Offering toys, petting an affectionate dog, or playing a game simply cannot happen 30 times in a row in a one minute time span.  My goal is not just to find the most special, highest value reward for the dog, but also simply to built a very effective marker that the dog understands.  

Also, I am of the school of though that click/reward does not necessarily end the behavior.  I use marks and treat rewards to shape heeling while we are heeling.  If I were to offer a toy to the dog during the heeling, the heeling behavior would have to end so the dog could play with the toy.  That's not how I train.  I do use toys and games at the end of a behavior, series of behaviors, or short training session, but I do not use them to actually mark and reinforce a behavior that is being trained/shaped. 

Kenya is not very food motivated, yet I successfully use tiny treats to shape and reinforce most of the behaviors she has learned.  I use toys and games as the motivator, both before and after the short training session.  I get her revved up by a quick game, then do maybe 3 minutes of training using the treats to train new behaviors, and then do another time with games or toys once we are done. 

I do not see food and other rewards as being mutually exclusive, nor do I think they always serve the same purpose. 

 Same here.  My dogs are food motivated because I do not feed them to their hearts' content.  If I did, they'd be obese.  They'd just eat and eat and eat and eat and eat and eat and vomit and eat and eat.. well you get the idea.  I feed them the amount they need to remain active and healthy and supplement with food as reward for tricks, obedience and agility.  I transferred some value of food to a frisbee for distance work but the frisbee always has a piece of food in it.

They are always looking for the next thing to eat, so it's using a basic instinct of their's.   Now in class, I will tell the beginners to not feed their dog's dinner before coming because they will use the equivalent amount of food in class.  If they fed their dogs, their dogs may not be hungry, but they would also be feeding them two meals in one night.  We all know that's not a good idea.  So it's not "starve your dog so he's really hungry", it's "don't feed your dog because we'll do it in class". 

Not one of my six german shepherds is even close to being anything other than mean lean loving machines.  In fact, I just upped Thunders portions again since he's again having a tough time keeping weight on in the cold weather.  And he isnt crazy about eating an increased portion either.  My dogs know that they can count on their meals on a pretty regular schedule and they don't ever get shortchanged.

But regardless, they ARE food motivated.  Some, more so than others, but there is not one of them who will turn down a tasty morsel!

I'm not creating hunger by using food rewards, anymore than someone who offers me a piece of chocolate is creating hunger in ME.  I don't need to be hungry to accept something tasty!  Nor do my dogs.

rwbeagles

yep..when an entire breed like mine for ex...can be characterized as "food motivated" I think the "why" becomes moot. It's nothing you will change...ever...it simply is. Understanding why, is simple when you understand their intent as a breed...and why they chase the rabbit.

Once you get past the why and get into "how can I use this"...that's when the good fun begins, for dog and owner both.

I so agree.  A motivator, or a reinforcer is simply something that the dog wants.  Food is a primary reinforcer for almost all dogs.  So, it is a most convenient one to use, both because most dogs really want it, and because you can reinforce quickly and copiously, as you would want to with marker, or clicker, training.  It is important, if you use food, to use it judiciously.  By that I do not mean that you should be stingy with it.  Reward like crazy for new behaviors.  But, don't keep showing the dog food before you ask for behavior (luring once or twice at first is fine), or you will get a dog that only wants to work when food is present.  Don't continue to reward each behavior every single time the dog does it.  (Remember, it is variable reinforcement that keeps behavior strong).  And, don't believe people who tell you that you shouldn't train with food because you can't take it in the ring with you.  Clicker trainers don't take food in the ring either!!!  And, their dogs still perform. 

Before you say that a dog really likes praise more than food, you need to be sure that the reason is not that he is too anxious to eat.  Many of my students who have dogs that are anxious around other dogs, for example, are amazed that their dog does not seem to want roast beef, yet when I ask them to back Fido away from the other dogs, he finally takes a nibble.  If you are going to be a successful trainer, you have to be open minded and willing to look at the whole situation - as it is, not as you want it to be.  If you tease your dog with a ball, a frisbee, and some cheese, which does he want???  If he works willingly for a Charley Bear treat at home and refuses it at the park that doesn't mean he isn't food motivated, it could mean that he is not interested in the face of all those distractions - perhaps you need to up the ante and use chicken.  People often balk at using human food - I get students all the time who are told to bring a boring food and a high value food to class - they think boring is Milk Bones, which it is - but then, they think Snausages is high value.  Maybe at home it is, but in a room where all the other dogs are getting cheese, roast beef or salmon brownies, their dogs are usually following someone else's owner all around the room.  Let the dog choose, then you will get a really motivated dog.  Use the high value motivator for difficult behaviors and situations, and use the boring stuff for the occasional "sit" or "down" that the dog has known for a long time.

No reinforcer is a "bad" reinforcer (so long as it isn't something like the neighbor's chickens).  It's just a reinforcer, positive or negative. 

Jewlieee

Just as a side note, I do look for what motivates the dog and use that for training. For example, some dogs just aren't food motivated as much as they are toy motivated or affection motivated. The new rescue I just got seems to be more affection motivated than food motivated. She'll do anything for attention/affection.

I'm also working on getting Neiko to be more toy motivated for frisbee and agility competition purposes, but that's a work in progress and takes training by itself.

You made an observation that the new rescue is not food motivated but affection motivated.  Isn't it then logical to assume that you will use affection to motivate in training and thus strengthening affection as a motivator (which is a very good and natural thing).  At the same time you are letting the dog keep "food" in its rightful place way down deep in the basic survival need area and not influencing by strengthening it or weakening it.

You also seem to agree with me that the human can influence what motivates the dog.

I do agree that we can influence what motivates a dog