Food Rewards - For and against..

Jewlieee

The new rescue I just got seems to be more affection motivated than food motivated. She'll do anything for attention/affection.

I am so glad you brought that up.....emotionally starved dogs will crave attention and interaction more than food....in my experience anyway....and DPU can attest to that, also.....and if one deals with dogs that have been starved (food and attention) bringing food as a reward into the game is not the best course of action......

spiritdogs

Food is a primary reinforcer for almost all dogs. 

Aren't there other primary reinforcers that are better, stronger, and healthier (both mentally and physically) for the dog?  I do agree with you that it is a human convenience but I also think it can be characterized as Fast-Food Training. 

snownose

Jewlieee

The new rescue I just got seems to be more affection motivated than food motivated. She'll do anything for attention/affection.

 

I am so glad you brought that up.....emotionally starved dogs will crave attention and interaction more than food....in my experience anyway....and DPU can attest to that, also.....and if one deals with dogs that have been starved (food and attention) bringing food as a reward into the game is not the best course of action......

Wait wait wait.... If you're not supposed to use food for a food-starved dog in training, then why is it okay to use affection for an affection-starved dog? Won't this create more of a starvation and obsession with affection (which can backfire, which I know you know as the owner of an SA dog), just as using food supposedly creates more of a starvation and obsession with food?

I'm still curious, DPU, whether you actually think, as you appear to, that affection is NOT a basic need for a dog.  You seem to have an issue with basic needs being used as motivators/rewards but support affection as being used that way, so the only conclusion I can draw is that you think affection isn't a basic need, and is something which can be withdrawn or withheld.   

Jewlieee

I do agree that we can influence what motivates a dog 

I don't agree with that statement.  My dogs are food motivated, they don't care too much about praise or affection, never have been.  But they will swim the English Channel for a treat (which is saying a lot since most shelties don't like water).  Not all dogs are motivated by the same things.  I tried all the different rewards during puppy training and the others just didn't motivate the pups.  To say that they can all be taught to use the same reward is denying the fact that all dogs are different and have individual minds. 

Benedict

I'm still curious, DPU, whether you actually think, as you appear to, that affection is NOT a basic need for a dog.  You seem to have an issue with basic needs being used as motivators/rewards but support affection as being used that way, so the only conclusion I can draw is that you think affection isn't a basic need, and is something which can be withdrawn or withheld.   

I always want my dogs to be satisfying their needs for socialization.  I do make a distinction with satisfying basic biological needs and I want to avoid using the need for of food/water, the need to pee, the need to do the hardwired breed instinct stuff.....just to teach the dog how to act around humans.

DPU

 basic biological needs and I want to avoid using the need for of food/water, the need to pee, the need to do the hardwired breed instinct stuff.....just to teach the dog how to act around humans.

Admirable.  But not actually an answer to my question, so I'm going to assume you aren't prepared to give one.   

timsdat

Jewlieee

I do agree that we can influence what motivates a dog 

I don't agree with that statement.  My dogs are food motivated, they don't care too much about praise or affection, never have been.  But they will swim the English Channel for a treat (which is saying a lot since most shelties don't like water).  Not all dogs are motivated by the same things.  I tried all the different rewards during puppy training and the others just didn't motivate the pups.  To say that they can all be taught to use the same reward is denying the fact that all dogs are different and have individual minds. 

So you are saying that the only reason your dogs get up in the morning is because of food.  Nothing else drives them?

houndlove

Wait wait wait.... If you're not supposed to use food for a food-starved dog in training, then why is it okay to use affection for an affection-starved dog? Won't this create more of a starvation and obsession with affection (which can backfire, which I know you know as the owner of an SA dog), just as using food supposedly creates more of a starvation and obsession with food?

Food resource guarding can become a serious problem.....but, I really think you know the answer to your above posted question and just enjoy needling a bit....

You don't have to stop using food, nobody is telling you to do that.....I am just explaining why I haven't used it and never will....

DPU

spiritdogs

Food is a primary reinforcer for almost all dogs. 

Aren't there other primary reinforcers that are better, stronger, and healthier (both mentally and physically) for the dog?  I do agree with you that it is a human convenience but I also think it can be characterized as Fast-Food Training. 

What is healthier than the home cooked organic liver brownies that I make????

Seriously, food is considered a primary reinforcer.  A primary reinforcer is simply something that fulfills a basic need for living and reinforces the organism without the need for prior learning.  So, water or sex are also primary reinforcers.    A secondary reinforcer gains its strength from being associated with a primary reinforcer.  Example: you give your dog a treat when he performs a behavior correctly - you also say "good boy"!  So, the "good boy" becomes a secondary reinforcer. 

Using food as a reward does not mean that you abandon all other forms of reward.   

Benedict

Admirable.  But not actually an answer to my question, so I'm going to assume you aren't prepared to give one.   

Then I don't know what you are asking. 

My particular dog is motivated by different things in different contexts.

For example, he craves human attention/contact pretty much constantly. To the point of it being detrimental to his mental well-being (mild to moderate SA). His #1 strongest motivator is being with me, and I have used that as a motivator/reward to teach him his "go to your carrier" command, which is by far his strongest command. (I ask, he runs to the carrier, he gets to go with me on a trip. No carrier, no trip!)

However, for "trick" teaching and general clicker training, food works a little better. If I were to leave him every time he didn't do what I asked, for example, he would quickly become stressed and confused. If I try to pet/stroke/verbally praise him as a reward, he also gets confused and kind of annoyed - if he could talk, I can guarantee he would say, "What are you doing? I'm trying to think, here, leave me alone! You're distracting me!" Little bits of food/treats work much better because they're not as strong a motivator and as such aren't so distracting as to interfere with his thought process.

As with all training, I think what one uses has to be dependent on the dog's personality, the owner's preference, and the situation in question. Doesn't it seem kind of silly not to use what works best for you and your dog? 

spiritdogs

A primary reinforcer is simply something that fulfills a basic need for living and reinforces the organism without the need for prior learning. 

Is that what Benedict was asking about "a basic need for living" and whether affection is included.  For purposes of definitions, what is 'basic need' versus 'need' for living and 'need' not living related.

DPU

So you are saying that the only reason your dogs get up in the morning is because of food.  Nothing else drives them?

LOL...this one's easy to answer....yes!

It's actually the reason there are dogs at all...ready access to easily obtained food. Kinda makes one feels used...lol.

DPU

Then I don't know what you are asking. 

Whether you view affection from a human or another dog as a basic need for a dog, or not.