Food Rewards - For and against..

How is not hugging your dog missing out on the bond?  There is far more to my relationships with my dogs than hugging them.  Many people in this thread have said that their dogs don't like it, I have 2 dogs in my home that also don't like it (keep in mind my dogs are small enough to be picked up and held).  Can I pick them up, yes, do I hug those two dogs, no because I respect the fact that they would prefer that I didn't.  Does that mean that there isn't affection?  Absolutely not, each dog has its own way of showing affection and I reciprocate.  My stud dog who has never met a stranger, who loves people, does not like to be picked up nor hugged BUT he loves to lay his cheek against yours and rub while licking ears.  He is also a dog that loves to lean against you whether it be standing, sitting or laying down.

Wouldn't hugging a dog that doesn't prefer to be hugged, do more damage to the relationship than improve it?  Isn't good solid relationships about respect, boundries and affection??

DPU, I mean no disrespect but please explain to me what you mean about giving hugs and there not being food involved?  That somehow implies to me (could be wrong and that is why I am asking) that those of us that give rewards or treats are using them as lures for affection.

Gezz I do believe I am getting more confused as this thread contines.............

Lynn

corgipower

My dogs love the showring, the love the sports, they love going to shows, they love being at shows. If they didn't, I wouldn't take them.

Mine are the same way.  They love to do agility.  I know my dogs and if they didn't like it they wouldn't have the enthusiasm that they show.  They aren't doing it just to please me.  If they don't like something they very grudgingly comply like when it is bath time.

Please explain what you mean.  My dogs love to compete, I would hazzard a guess and also say that most of the dogs that I see at shows and trials are the same way. 

Ado

Wouldn't hugging a dog that doesn't prefer to be hugged, do more damage to the relationship than improve it?  Isn't good solid relationships about respect, boundries and affection??

 Lynn, your statement "Wouldn't hugging a dog that doesn't prefer to be hugged, do more damage to the relationship than improve it?  Isn't good solid relationships about respect, boundries and affection??" certainly tells me that you understand the nature of relationship with other species, so I don't think it's you who have missed the point at all. 

I have two dogs that love to participate in sports and one whose priorities are different - prying him from the couch, or in front of the pellet stove, takes a gargantuan effort LOL.  He loves being a therapy dog, but is not that thrilled about leaving his comfortable spot just the same - kind of like the kid who doesn't want to go to school but has fun once they get there.  Every dog has a different personality, just as we do.  When I get a new dog, I don't set about to do obedience or agility or whatever just because I like it.  I want to have a partner that enjoys their job, too.  So, Sioux likes agility, Sequoyah doesn't.  Am I going to force Sequoyah to do agility when she would prefer herding or tracking?  No matter what reward system you use, it's pretty hard to overcome a dog's inherent distaste for the work. 

FourIsCompany:

I don't know why some dogs don't like it, but I imagine it has something to do with exposure. I'm a very physical person and I held and hugged them a lot when they were puppies. And I don't mean squeezing to hurt their ribs, I mean a soft envelopment of love in my arms. I am certain they can feel the energy as well and it's probably very pleasant to them. For mine, it's affection... Not at all aversive.

I doubt that it's an exposure issue. I have some dogs that like being hugged and some that hate it and some that fall in between. What's interesting to me is that the two that dislike it the most have birthdays a day apart. Makes me wonder if it's an astrological issue. I don't think it's any different from the idea that some people like hugs, some people don't like being touched at all, some people like contact only from people they know well and are comfortable with. Just a matter of different personalities.

mudpuppy

I'm not convinced all these so-called "enjoy hugging" dogs actually enjoy hugging- resigned to it, yes. So many people miss the subtle expressions of distaste.

I can assure you that Morgan does enjoy hugging. She does at times get in a mood where she doesn't want to be hugged, and she shows it. She is totally relaxed and she'll fall asleep while being hugged. I don't believe that falling asleep is an indication of resignation. I believe it's an indication of comfort and contentment.

corgipower

mudpuppy

I'm not convinced all these so-called "enjoy hugging" dogs actually enjoy hugging- resigned to it, yes. So many people miss the subtle expressions of distaste.

I can assure you that Morgan does enjoy hugging. She does at times get in a mood where she doesn't want to be hugged, and she shows it. She is totally relaxed and she'll fall asleep while being hugged. I don't believe that falling asleep is an indication of resignation. I believe it's an indication of comfort and contentment.

I'm going to step in here to say that, while I think mudpuppy is right a preponderance of the time, and I agree that hugging is unnatural to dogs, I also believe that there are some dogs that like, or at least don't mind it.  That said, I do think that there are MANY people who do miss the "subtle expressions of distaste" and without seeing video I would not presume that to include you.  I've just seen it so many times...

Oddly, I think the reason Sequoyah likes it is because it is not a "light touch" which actually drives her crazy.  I liken it to people who prefer to have a foot massage, but would go out of their gourds if you tickled a toe.  Even then, she isn't always in the mood either.

Both of my pups are not very food motivated.  I tried to train them by using food at first, and they weren't very interested.  I used the same method as DPU, I use a hand signal and say "sit" when they do, they get head squishes (something the both of them enjoy a lot), they get hugs and tonnes of praise.  Then we do it again, and that's how I got through to them.

My dogs are HUGE snugglers and huggers.  They will come up with me on the couch and will lift up under my arm so my arm is over them.  If i move it, Zack will paw at me until I put it back.

I don't see a problem depending on the dog, if the dog truly doesn;t like it, then you wouldn't do it, but with other dogs, that's what works with them.  No dog is the same.

mudpuppy

I'm wondering what kind of bond one gets from constantly forcing a dog to accept an aversive act from a human who thinks it's a positive experience for the dog and tries to use it as a reward. Then one thinks about the most common reasons dogs seem to not be food motivated- stress comes to mind.

Dogs often seem to get trained despite their owners. Very adaptable creatures.  

I don't know what to say to a person who is repulsed by showing a dog 'touch affection' during training.  I do know that when I feed pigeons, the pleasuree is watching how I can get a wild animal close to me and the short term dominance control I have over the animal because of the food.  That act does nothing to contribute to bonding.  When food is gone so is the pigeon.  Now if I was to touch or pet and the bird understood the meaning of touch and trusted....it would be a different story.  

mudpuppy

 I know it's not an exposure thing

Well, I wouldn't say that for sure. I don't think a lot of exposure to hugging a dog will necessarily make the dog like being hugged, but I do know an animal living with another will pick up what they mean if they do something a lot. I saw the minpin belonging to my BF's parents become quite accustomed to being handled in ways he initially strongly disliked. Over time, he came to understand that this handling was not intended to harm him and was a form of affection. In a way, perhaps they classically conditioned him, because after unpleasant handling they'd give him lots of positive affection. And Kit would be quite happy if he was never touched by a person, thank you, but he learnt from my body language that I really liked to touch him and simultaneously discovered that being stroked on the head was actually quite nice and after a few months of me insisting on patting him if he'd sit still and let me, we came to a cordial agreement that I'd leave him alone unless he 'asked' for a head stroke by stretching his head out towards my hand. However, often he just wants to sniff my fingers and when I try to follow through and pat his head he pulls it away. So if he clearly doesn't want a pat but wants to sniff my fingers, that's as far as we go, but you can bet I melt into a puddle on the floor when he lets me pat him, and I'm pretty sure that he gets the general gist of this and knows that I like it at least. Bonnie was also anti-touch when I got her, but I taught her (with a clicker!) to accept being brushed on the head and she discovered she quite liked it and now she's a regular lap bunny. So sometimes it takes some exposure for an animal to discover they're okay with something after all, and I think they can be more tolerant of something if they know it makes you very happy and affectionate towards them.

That's not to say that's a very good way of building a relationship, though. If they hate hugs they hate hugs. There's no reason to force them to put up with it if after exposure they still don't really like it. The way I see it, it is indeed about respect and boundaries and affection. I don't think repeatedly doing something to an animal that they don't actually like does a thing for bonding, and if anything, has a detrimental effect.  

Wow.  I didn't see mud say anyplace that she is repulsed by showing a dog touch affection.  She was pretty clear in her opinions on hugging, but I think you've taken a giant leap to reach the conclusion that you have.

I honestly can't imagine shouting at a foster and then grabbing them into a hug.  I can shout "YOU ARE THE BEST DOG IN THE WHOLE WORLD" or "YOU ARE A LOW LIFE, WORTHLESS PIECE OF TURD"  and most rescues I get, well, all they hear is the shouting.  They don't comprehend the WORDS, or even the tone, just the volume.  And, most of the fosters I've had equate shouting with "Uh oh, I did something wrong and the human is PO'd again".  But then, I tend to be fairly soft spoken and only raise my voice when I'm upset or angry in general anyway.

I'm also one of those people who is not thrilled to have a stranger, or semi-stranger, or even someone I don't know WELL, decide to invade my personal space and clasp me in a hug.  My fosters don't KNOW me well enough, nor do I know them well enough to force physical contact at that level.  To me it is about respecting another living creatures personal space and respecting their preferences for physical contact.

Some dogs DO enjoy a hug.  I will disagree with mud on that point....not ALL dogs find a hug aversive.  But for some, they'd rather eat ground glass than be grasped in a hug by a shouting stranger.

The use of treats in training is not an evil thing, nor is it meant to use a dogs basic needs against him.  It is simply an opportunity for a dog to EARN something tasty, in addition to the regular healthy and tasty meals I provide.  I also use plenty of praise and physical affection, in a form that the DOG appreciates.

In my opinion, the use of food in training is perfectly acceptable.

Glenmar, what is missing out of your post is the TRUST element.  If you can recall from my previous postings of how I bring a foster dog into my home, you will see that I do what most people do not recommend.  But during the long period of time where I just observe and have little expections of the dog, I build trust.   And maybe that is why all the dogs that come here accept freely a hug from me.  No matter how many times you all say food is acceptable, I will always look at it as a 'wild card' between the direct relationship of me and the dog. 

glenmar

I honestly can't imagine shouting at a foster and then grabbing them into a hug.  I can shout "YOU ARE THE BEST DOG IN THE WHOLE WORLD" or "YOU ARE A LOW LIFE, WORTHLESS PIECE OF TURD"  and most rescues I get, well, all they hear is the shouting.  They don't comprehend the WORDS, or even the tone, just the volume.  And, most of the fosters I've had equate shouting with "Uh oh, I did something wrong and the human is PO'd again".  But then, I tend to be fairly soft spoken and only raise my voice when I'm upset or angry in general anyway.

I don't think anyone advocates shouting at a dog, be it a rescue or brought up from puppy, and then forcing a hug.......I watch for how the animal craves human contact and I then nurse that.....simple, and I don't follow them around to hug them........I have also noticed that dogs that enjoy hugs are less likely to struggle when they need to be picked up....yes, even my biggest dog had to be picked up before at the vet, and then to load into the vehicle without a problem....DH is a strong man.....lol

Well, that's where you and I part ways.  I don't think it's fair to the dog to bring him into my home, develop a deep relationship with him, keep him for many, many months and then ship him off to another home.  He doesn't understand that he's only here "for a little bit" and the poor dogs start to develope a deep and abiding relationship, then BAM, off to another home.  The longer a dog stays in MY home, the more difficult the transition is to the "real" home.

Trust is inherent to any relationship.  That goes without saying, and my fosters learn that I can be trusted and I don't need a month observing them for them to come to trust me.  I need to teach these dogs that humans CAN be predictable, and consistent and loving and gentle, all at the same time.  I need to teach them to appropriately interact with all forms of human and other animals. 

Perhaps it is better for the dog not to bond so tightly with me that he feels wrenched when he leaves my home and finds it harder to bond with his new family.  I don't harden my heart.  I don't withhold affection.  But, I DO keep things in perspective.  And I DO use treats and food rewards, and whatever the heck else will motivate each individual dog in the training process.  What I do not do is decide that one size fits all and that one single form of communication is the ONLY one that will work and is what is BEST for the dog.  Might be best for me, but I don't count in this equation.  It's about the foster.