Food Rewards - For and against..

    • Gold Top Dog

    Glenda, you bring up a good point when it comes to bonding......how do you hold back on the bonding? I have never been able to do that.....and yes, I admit, once the animal leaves I am heartbroken for a while....

    This is going to happen with me again in March......I will be taking a cat in for a relative who is shipping out again in March......at this point I don't know if the cat will stay with me forever or not.......but, I know I will pour all the attention and love on her just like with the rest of my animals....

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    I really don't hold back on bonding.  And my heart hurts each and every time one of my fosters leaves, no matter how perfect and wonderful the home they are going to is.  But, I tell myself every day that I'm doing a job, just like a school teacher does, loving, teaching and then passing them on to where they belong.  I too pour love and attention on fosters, but I remind myself day in and day out that I can't fall in love with that animal....he isn't mine to keep.

    But, I also don't keep fosters for months and years like DPU seems to do.  I honestly don't think its fair to the dog to keep him for a year or more and then rehome.  If one is here for 6 months, I figure he's mine.

    • Gold Top Dog

    l.michelle

    Both of my pups are not very food motivated.  I tried to train them by using food at first, and they weren't very interested.  I used the same method as DPU, I use a hand signal and say "sit" when they do, they get head squishes (something the both of them enjoy a lot), they get hugs and tonnes of praise.  Then we do it again, and that's how I got through to them.

    My dogs are HUGE snugglers and huggers.  They will come up with me on the couch and will lift up under my arm so my arm is over them.  If i move it, Zack will paw at me until I put it back.

    I don't see a problem depending on the dog, if the dog truly doesn;t like it, then you wouldn't do it, but with other dogs, that's what works with them.  No dog is the same.

     

    Putting a nose up under your arm, or pawing at you, are both "demand" behaviors.  In other words, the dog is asking you for something.  For some dogs, it's attention (in your case, I suspect that's it).  For other dogs, it's that they want to go out, or they want dinner, or whatever.   You are very correct that it is the dog that chooses the motivator.  However, I do consistently find in my classes that owners who bring the dog's regular treat that they like at home (usually it's something like Snausages or milk bones - ugh) cannot compete with the interest shown by the dogs whose owners are smart enough to have listened at the lecture, and who bring multitudinous tiny bits of chicken, cheese, or roast beef.  When you confront puppies with heavy distraction (a "puppy party" such as happens at the first couple of play times,  LOL) then you need to ramp up the treats to get their attention away from those other puppies.  Granted, you do NOT need to do that forever, just in the beginning.  I find that when owners aren't so stubbornly attached to the idea that they don't want the dog getting "human food", or they aren't so stingy with the rewards at first, then the dogs do very well with them using food as the motivator.  We do get the occasional dog that likes to work for toys better than food, but it is so rare it isn't worth mentioning.  All protestations to the contrary, this comes from our experiences with literally thousands of dogs over a period of years.  The hardest thing isn't training the dogs using food, it's convincing opinionated owners to give it a try.  Most of the time, though, it takes them watching their dog following some other owner around the hall (because that person has something that smells better than the milk bones) to alert them that their dog does have preferences.  Sometimes, we even get dogs that turn up their noses at roast beef - because they are "cheese dogs".  Before I assume that a dog is not food motivated, I try many different types of food to see if all that is happening is that the dog has a preference.  Also, some dogs come in to class and won't take food, but it has nothing to do with motivation per se.  It's because they are simply too anxious.  Those owners often report that the dog does take treats at home and is learning the behaviors taught in class.  So, we work on some classical conditioning outside of class to help the dog feel more at ease around other dogs, new people, etc. so that the owners can eventually get the dog fluent in the behaviors in more distracting situations.  Often, those dogs, if they are just mildly stressed at first, are much more comfortable by week 3 or 4 of class, because they have realized that nothing bad happens to them in our venue.

    • Gold Top Dog

    yeah, anne, that's the experience the instructors at our club have as well. They actually keep a selection of nice treats and toys on hand to help convince the stubborn owners who think a dog biscuit or a "good boy" SHOULD be what a dog should work for. Once you drop your pre-conceived notions of what should motivate your dog, and actually try to find out what truly motivates the dog, training progresses rapidly- which is good for both dog and owner. Dogs who aren't trained tend to end up dead at the shelter, and owners who don't see rapid progress tend to give up.

    • Gold Top Dog

    glenmar

    But, I also don't keep fosters for months and years like DPU seems to do.  I honestly don't think its fair to the dog to keep him for a year or more and then rehome.  If one is here for 6 months, I figure he's mine.

    I am fully committed to the job of fostering and no dogs leaves my home until the dog is ready and I believe that God has a hand in that.  The implied alternative is PTS or stop rescuing, which are not fair options for the dog.    Yes, for the dogs that need special care and are with me a long time and then find their forever homes, it is extremely difficulty when the transition occurred.  Its part of the job so the dog knows what a true bond to a human is and will have a faster time bonding with the new owenrs.  I remember when I gave up Essie how I went to my car and just bawled my eyes out.  When someone inquiries on Marvin, I get a hot rush to my head, a oh no feeling.

    • Gold Top Dog

    mudpuppy

    Once you drop your pre-conceived notions of what should motivate your dog, and actually try to find out what truly motivates the dog, training progresses rapidly- which is good for both dog and owner.

    Definitely an advocacy for use of affection and not food. 

    • Gold Top Dog
    spiritdogs

    However, I do consistently find in my classes that owners who bring the dog's regular treat that they like at home (usually it's something like Snausages or milk bones - ugh) cannot compete with the interest shown by the dogs whose owners are smart enough to have listened at the lecture, and who bring multitudinous tiny bits of chicken, cheese, or roast beef. 

    Very true. I also bring chicken or cheese or some very tasty commercial treat ~ like the N.B. rolls so that the owner's who didn't bring the right treats have access to things they can try for their dogs. Even worse than the people who bring milkbones are the ones who don't bring any treats and then wonder why their dog keeps watching the person next to them.
    • Gold Top Dog
    DPU

    I don't know what to say to a person who is repulsed by showing a dog 'touch affection' during training.  I do know that when I feed pigeons, the pleasuree is watching how I can get a wild animal close to me and the short term dominance control I have over the animal because of the food.  That act does nothing to contribute to bonding.  When food is gone so is the pigeon.  Now if I was to touch or pet and the bird understood the meaning of touch and trusted....it would be a different story.  

    Pigeons are not dominated by people, and unless they are injured, they can fly away at any time. Pigeons are well acclimated to being in close proximity to people, and they are scavengers. They don't have a fear of humans and they will readily take food from any source.
    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    mudpuppy

    Once you drop your pre-conceived notions of what should motivate your dog, and actually try to find out what truly motivates the dog, training progresses rapidly- which is good for both dog and owner.

    Definitely an advocacy for use of affection and not food. 

    I'm sorry, but no it's not. It's an advocacy for keeping an open mind which it seems like folks around here occasionally need a bit of help with. Stick out tongue It means try lots of different things and then use whatever works best, don't try just one method and claim that others are not valid.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I didn't read this entire thread... 11 pages is just too much for my limited attention span at the moment (more coffee, please! :)  

    But, i will say I've very, very lucky to have 2 highly food motivated dogs.  They will do ANYTHING for food and what type of food will give you varied responses. Some food is not worth a "WAIT" at the dog park.  And some food is.  Did I do anything to create this behavior. No.  My weimaraner puppy could eat all day long, and until he is as round as he is tall.  He just loves to eat. My JRT mix while pickier with food is not picky about treats. She'll gladly give me a "play dead" at the dog park for a bit of chicken, that says A LOT IMO.

    I think it's essential to "pay" your dogs for their work, otherwise what's the benefit for them?  Why do you go to work?  Do you love it?  That's my thoughts on it.  My dogs just prefer food to toys, and that's A-Okay for me.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    To be totally honest, I had to read the 11 pages just to see for myself the evidence that anyone COULD argue whether or not food can be beneficial in training.  Really, this thread has just proved to me that dog nerds will argue about anything!

    I will agree that food is not the answer to all problems, it's not appropriate for some dogs or some situations. But to deny that it's a useful training tool because of a few isolated cases... "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" springs to mind....

    I honestly can't believe that otherwise intelligent and compassionate people are so inclined to attempt to dictate what the dog SHOULD want and claim that if they want anything else there is something wrong with the relationship.  My mind boggles....

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J

    I think it's essential to "pay" your dogs for their work, otherwise what's the benefit for them?  Why do you go to work?  Do you love it?  That's my thoughts on it.  My dogs just prefer food to toys, and that's A-Okay for me.

    That is fine for you but for me, and because you did not read all the post, I do not want a Employer-Employee relationship with my dogs.  Your use of the word "pay" and also in referencing "work", translates to me the exact relationship I have with my boss.  I do not want that type of relationship.

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    Sera_J

    I think it's essential to "pay" your dogs for their work, otherwise what's the benefit for them?  Why do you go to work?  Do you love it?  That's my thoughts on it.  My dogs just prefer food to toys, and that's A-Okay for me.

    That is fine for you but for me, and because you did not read all the post, I do not want a Employer-Employee relationship with my dogs.  Your use of the word "pay" and also in referencing "work", translates to me the exact relationship I have with my boss.  I do not want that type of relationship.

     

    Hmm. That's interesting, you're taking this very literally... I don't expect my dogs to do a behavior that maybe considered unnatural and not be rewarded for their effort.  Of course I'm doing rally and showing my dog(s, rally with both, conformation with logan.) ... so maybe I'm asking for a bit more than the average pet home.

    But, should I decide to continue down your line of thinking, employee/employer relationship, maybe that's not such a bad analogy.  There is a time when they are working, in obedience class and during trick lessons and conformation classes... that's a job they have and I expect them to behave in a certain manner, thereby yes I guess I'm their "boss", I'm certainly not their employee Stick out tongue  Here's a thought, what's the difference between being the "pack leader" and "boss"?? ... that actually maybe a question for a different thread.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J

    DPU

    Sera_J

    I think it's essential to "pay" your dogs for their work, otherwise what's the benefit for them?  Why do you go to work?  Do you love it?  That's my thoughts on it.  My dogs just prefer food to toys, and that's A-Okay for me.

    That is fine for you but for me, and because you did not read all the post, I do not want a Employer-Employee relationship with my dogs.  Your use of the word "pay" and also in referencing "work", translates to me the exact relationship I have with my boss.  I do not want that type of relationship.

     

    Hmm. That's interesting, you're taking this very literally... I don't expect my dogs to do a behavior that maybe considered unnatural and not be rewarded for their effort.  Of course I'm doing rally and showing my dog(s, rally with both, conformation with logan.) ... so maybe I'm asking for a bit more than the average pet home.

    But, should I decide to continue down your line of thinking, employee/employer relationship, maybe that's not such a bad analogy.  There is a time when they are working, in obedience class and during trick lessons and conformation classes... that's a job they have and I expect them to behave in a certain manner, thereby yes I guess I'm their "boss", I'm certainly not their employee Stick out tongue  Here's a thought, what's the difference between being the "pack leader" and "boss"?? ... that actually maybe a question for a different thread.
     

    I know you said you did not read all the post, so this will be a repeat.  I do take words such as "paycheck", "pay", 'work for", and even "jackpot" very literally because some people do define their relationship that way.  And, when the dog has used up its usefullness, then off to another home or a shelter and then that is where my volunteer work comes in.  So I have a big stake in how the dog owner defines their relationship with their dog. 

    With reference to your words "pack leader", I look at the "pack" as dog to dog while my relationship is human to dog, which is very much a different relationship.  With respect to your use of the word "boss", to me that has the meaning of exerting one's will, applying dominance, and maybe by force applied physically or mentally.  I certainly feel the authority I have over my dogs comes from respect that is derived from caring I give my dog. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    FWIW, I too take the job of fostering very seriously, and I'm very committed to what I do.  If you get in the car and sob when a foster finds a new home, what do you think HE might be feeling when you suddenly disappear from his life after so many months?  I simply don't think that is fair to the dog in question.