Food Rewards - For and against..

LOL.

be able to hug the dog.

all of mine have been carefully de-sensitized to being hugged, so in case the clueless public tries it no one gets bit, but that doesn't mean they LIKE it. This is not my opinion, either, it's well-documented by lots of respected experts that dogs hate being hugged. Hugging is a primate thing; to a dog, it's a very scary and unpleasant experience.

http://dogs.about.com/od/trainingandbehaviour/a/bite_prevention.htm

first one I could find

I don't allow anyone to hug my dog unless I ask them to.  Once my little cousin was sitting next to her and Kenya had her head in cousin's lap.  Cousin had her arm around Kenya and was petting her.  Kenya was enjoying this (which is rare, she typically does not care for ANY physical attention from anyone but myself or very small girls).  However, something happened in the background, Kenya spooked, tossed her head to see what was going on, and smacked her jaw into my little cousin's face.  I also do not allow anyone to put their face to her head.  She has air snapped in the past when people try to grab her cheeks and kiss her forehead.  To her it is very offensive behavior, an invasion of personal space for no reason.  She whips her head, air snaps, or just plain runs away to avoid the conflict.  To her (and many dogs), that type of head-on physical approach means conflict.  Coke also ducks if you try to reach over him in any way or pet his head.  Someone hit him in the past.  Why would I "reward" him with something that used to be abusive to him?!?!?  I don't think my desire to want to hug dogs supersedes any consideration of how they feel.

Just like some of us won't use food to train a dog that has been starved, I will not force hugs and front-on physical contact on a dog that has been beaten. 

Wow, some of you guys have some really anti hugging dogs........the one dog that I would have never expected to want real close contact was Ronin......at this point he wants close contact......he tries to sit between my legs so I can hold him.....

snownose

Wow, some of you guys have some really anti hugging dogs........the one dog that I would have never expected to want real close contact was Ronin......at this point he wants close contact......he tries to sit between my legs so I can hold him.....

Kenya likes hugs (from me only) but it's not really a sufficient reward.  I can't keep hugging her while we are heeling; I can't hug her during a right finish; certainly can't hug her for a drop on recall.  Coke LOVES hugs from anyone, but again, it doesn't work as a training reward because it automatically stops the behavior which defeats the purpose of using it as a training reward.  For example, right now we are working on longer "stay".  I like to reward him intermittently so he understands that "stay" means staying put and that he can't get up until I come release him (not call him over to me).  So, once he is in a stay, we can walk over, give him a treat, and walk away again.  As long as he stays sitting, I will keep coming back every once in a while and giving him the treat.  However, if I walk over and hug him, he gets sooooo excited his tail wags, his butt comes off the ground, and the "stay" is over.  The way I train, a reward does not mean you are released and the behavior is over, I use a separate release word for that.  A reward like a hug, while very enjoyable, is very confusing for Coke because it breaks his focus on training and ends the behavior.

IMO, training rewards need to be medium value.  A hug is very low value to Kenya and very, very high value to Coke.  It also doesn't work with my markers or the way that I train. Kenya doesn't care for it and it makes Coke WAAAAAY to excited, like putting a live squirrel in front of him and expecting him to train for it.  Coke gets lots of hugs and butt pats once the short training session is over.

mudpuppy

LOL.

all of mine have been carefully de-sensitized to being hugged, so in case the clueless public tries it no one gets bit, but that doesn't mean they LIKE it. This is not my opinion, either, it's well-documented by lots of respected experts that dogs hate being hugged. Hugging is a primate thing; to a dog, it's a very scary and unpleasant experience.

http://dogs.about.com/od/trainingandbehaviour/a/bite_prevention.htm

first one I could find

So you hug your dogs for whatever reason, Muddpuppy.  Don't you feel the bond strengthening with each hug.

I found these two worthwhile sentences in the article.  Since I focus primarily on socialization, hugging would be a natural thing to do.  The author is just stating on opinion based on an interpretation of what dogs do amongst themselves.  Since its a human-dog relationship, it is natural to think it would be different than a dog-to-dog relationship.  Humans makes compromises for dogs and dogs makes compromises for humans with the end result being a stronger bond.

 The best barrier against aggression is a strong social drive.

 Dogs don't like hugs! Oh, I know, your dog loves when your kids hug him. While I believe that dogs can be taught to accept and, in a few cases, even welcome hugs, I also know that hugging is not a normal dog behavior.

I haven't been on the forum for very long, therefore I don't know who does what with their dogs.  I don't want to assume nor offend, but maybe why we are not agreeing on food motivators vs affection, depends on what the long term goals of the training are.  I have noticed that many of the posters that are very pro food etc compete or are training to compete with their dogs.  For those that have those goals in mind, we have to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible.  And to have only one or two motivators can be limiting although not impossible.

We are not allowed when competing to touch our dogs without earning faults, although the dog can touch us, or in OB give even a verbal Atta boy!! until the exercise is done (Ob people, please correct if me if I am wrong, I don't compete in Ob)

In agility during the middle of a run (course) we can't stop and give our dogs a hug or a pat etc without earning faults.  Now there are times when we do, especially if we have had an issue and then we can run out of the ring giving all kinds of praise, hugging, tugging and food rewards etc for a job well done or for over coming an issue.

We work very hard to pre condition our dogs to expect a reward at the end of a series of tasks, some of those tasks are very difficult and I am afraid that my dogs would find getting affection only not very rewarding.  But having said that, there are trainers out there that do with hold affection etc as a punishment and because of how they train their dogs and the conditions (i.e dog is always crated, no toys, no play with other dogs etc) that the dogs live in.  In short, all the dogs resources, food/play/affection etc comes from the trainer/handler only.

Most of us choose not to train our dogs this way, the dogs live as family members and receive affection all the time without having to earn it.  Therefore in the case of competing, affection isn't a high motivator.  Gezz did I make sense????

 Lynn

Lynn, you made perfect sense.  I train Kenya for rally, agility, pet therapy, and hopefully formal obedience.  Coke is newer and is still going through obedience levels/manners, but then he will also do rally and a lot more pet therapy, probably not agility because of his back.  Both dogs receive rewards and motivators of various forms, but while I am actively training, food is the only think that offers the right level of motivation (not too high, not too low) that can be administered almost non-stop without stopping the behavior.  I also use food for rally training because it helps develop clear hand signals for each station.  In agility, it works with targeting, 2on/2off, etc.

Most of us choose not to train our dogs this way [withholding affection], the dogs live as family members and receive affection all the time without having to earn it.  Therefore in the case of competing, affection isn't a high motivator.

Good point. 

Ado

I haven't been on the forum for very long, therefore I don't know who does what with their dogs.  I don't want to assume nor offend, but maybe why we are not agreeing on food motivators vs affection, depends on what the long term goals of the training are.  I have noticed that many of the posters that are very pro food etc compete or are training to compete with their dogs.  For those that have those goals in mind, we have to have as many tools in the toolbox as possible.  And to have only one or two motivators can be limiting although not impossible.

snownose

Wow, some of you guys have some really anti hugging dogs........the one dog that I would have never expected to want real close contact was Ronin......at this point he wants close contact......he tries to sit between my legs so I can hold him.....

I have scars on my face from my attempt at hugging a GSD as a child (21 stitches), so I have a natural wariness with hugging dog--my own dogs are fine but you could not pay me to do it to a strange dog, or even one I have not spent lots of time with.  I do hug my dogs just in case someone came up and did it to them--I actually touch my dogs in all sorts of ways (pulling skin and ears, playing with their feet and faces) so that if someone else does it to them it won't be completely foreign to them.  However, I normally show them affection in other ways--petting, scratching, snuggling, etc.

 Do you know how to tell whether your dog likes to be hugged?  Hug him.  If he turns his head away from you, it's a pretty sure sign that he'd rather not interact in that way.  My guess is that some people will have dogs that like it, some will have dogs that don't, and some will have dogs that tolerate it from them but would not like it from a stranger.  It is NOT normal behavior for dogs to like hugging.  They simply get conditioned to it because we don't seem to be able to do without it.

I have to admit - Sequoyah loves it, Sioux likes it sometimes, Maska generally doesn't like it but is such a tolerant boy that you could hug him all day and he would still sit there and let you.  Fergie is kinda hard to hug - she only weighs 6 pounds, but my guess is that she likes curling up on my lap better. 

Most of us choose not to train our dogs this way, the dogs live as family members and receive affection all the time without having to earn it.  Therefore in the case of competing, affection isn't a high motivator.  Gezz did I make sense????

 Lynn

very nice. Yes.

So you hug your dogs for whatever reason, Muddpuppy.  Don't you feel the bond strengthening with each hug.

no I would never be so RUDE as to force my primate behaviors on my dogs. I never hug dogs because dogs hate being hugged and hugging them damages ones bond- oh, it's that crazy weirdo human doing crazy stuff again. better avert my eyes and shut down my mind unless I get too irritated and rip her face off. Anyone tries to hug my dogs I lecture them severely about how dangerous it is to go around hugging strange dogs- you want some plastic surgery, well, go around hugging dogs. Sooner or later you'll get some.

DPU

Praise rewards is showing affection and this is not in the same category as food or in the same category as pleasurable food.

For some, not all.

DPU

Thats our difference, not traninng philosphies

To me, it does sound like a difference in philosophies. That some of us see nothing wrong with using food as a motivator and that some of us do not see the affection as not also being a basic need. Dogs are social creatures, so some interaction or affection will be part of why they form cooperatives.

DPU

For affection and praise, it is always there, only shown differently and it can never be withheld, unlike food

But it can. Lexi did it with Petro when he tried to initiate play with her. She blew him off to go and try to horn in on Marvin and Drizzle. So, Petro didn't pursue. Later, Lexi initiates and Petro agrees and they go off. So, that could possibly set up as a reinforcement for Petro to allow Lexi to initiate play, especially if she tends to do that. Play can be a form of affection and it is certainly social interaction.

And while I understand that your first priority with a starving dog is to wisely see to it that he as something to eat and rehab to the proper weight, there is nothing wrong with another dog who has not been starving to be trained with treat rewards, and even some work for their meals. Shadow likes to chase the kong a few times before eating. That was not my idea. That's what he desires to do. I imagined it felt like hunting and bringing the kill back to the den. Work. Or, it could also be to gear up his appetite. Or both. If your experience with a starving dog is as different as you make to be, since, as you point out, we can't understand unless we've rescued a starving dog, then how appropos is it to our hum-drum normal lives? More than one person has shared that their dog or dogs aren't interested in human show of affection at certain points and are desiring a treat, even if they had a sumptuous raw meal or even a knuckle to chew on earlier.

Or, as a wise person would often say, the dog defines the reward or what is reinforcing. We don't get to control that. I thought it was interesting, the notion that a human can decide for the dog what is a reinforcer. Such has not been my experience, just as I didn't get to choose what actually punishes my dog. That's beyond my control. I just have to aknowledge whatever it is and use it accordingly.

Ado

In agility during the middle of a run (course) we can't stop and give our dogs a hug or a pat etc without earning faults.  Now there are times when we do, especially if we have had an issue and then we can run out of the ring giving all kinds of praise, hugging, tugging and food rewards etc for a job well done or for over coming an issue.

And this is where I was introduced to the power of the bond, the subtle gestures of affections, and the satisfaction from praise after a good run.  Nothing between the dog and the human but good emotions and the joy of each other company.  Yes, my Drizzle in her day was an agility dog and very good at it.  She got the best of all worlds, praise and affection for a great course run and food treats-just for the pleasure and the taste. 

DPU

Ado

In agility during the middle of a run (course) we can't stop and give our dogs a hug or a pat etc without earning faults.  Now there are times when we do, especially if we have had an issue and then we can run out of the ring giving all kinds of praise, hugging, tugging and food rewards etc for a job well done or for over coming an issue.

And this is where I was introduced to the power of the bond, the subtle gestures of affections, and the satisfaction from praise after a good run.  Nothing between the dog and the human but good emotions and the joy of each other company.  Yes, my Drizzle in her day was an agility dog and very good at it.  She got the best of all worlds, praise and affection for a great course run and food treats-just for the pleasure and the taste.