Food Rewards - For and against..

corgipower

With most of my dogs, food is a nice low-medium value motivator. They don't get as hyped up and distracted by food as they would with a toy or with praise, but they gladly will take food as a reward. It allows them to know that they did something I liked while they still retain the focus on their training.

Yes, this is exactly how I feel/why I use treats (emphasis added by me). 

I've made this point in various threads and so far haven't seen anyone offer an alternate method.  I use toys, games, and affection as rewards and motivators, but during actual training, small treats are the only thing that works to charge clickers or mark and give a reward while the dog continues the behavior and maintains focus.  If anyone can offer something else, I'll be happy to try it, but no one else has made any other suggestions, thus food is really the only option for me....

If I am understanding DPU correctly, he objects to making the dog work for a treat.  He has no issue with food rewards but doesn't like to see them used as a reward for a task completed?  And only gives treats as a snack and a social occassion.

When I use treats in training, I most assuredly don't have the attitude that the dog is going to be shipped off to the pound if he/she doesn't perform.  My fosters didn't know what praise or affection was when I got them.  They do now.  But they are a different case since they are only here for a short time to get ready to go into pre-approved homes that are anxiously waiting for them.  But, I also work with a couple of the local all breed rescues and I've taken fosters for them in a pinch as well.  It has to be what works best for the dog in order for it to work.  But in MOST cases, regardless of breed, regardless of who they are or why they are with me, food in the form of an itty bitty treat is a prime motivator.  And, to be very honest, I probably shoot myself in the foot because if it's a good try, the dog is likely to get the treat anyway, even if the actual objective isn't met.  Because I can SEE that he/she is trying and maybe I just wasn't clear enough.  But, when they do get it right, they get a jackpot of treats and a ton of praise.

With my crew I use variable reinforcement I believe its called.  I've often said that they really listen to me when we are walking, and that they want to be sure that they hear what I might be saying.....because they never know when I might ask for a sit, a turn, offer a treat, etc.

But, even when I'm giving treats just because, well, I do expect butts on the floor in a nice sit.  I do expect them to wait patiently until I call THEIR names to take a treat.  The reality of life with six full time large breed dogs is that a person could rather easily be injured if some rules weren't in place for the dispensing of treats and goodies.  And nothing intentional, but, by golly when six dogs all think they can have the exact same piece of treat, it *could* get dangerous.  So even for the "free treats" there are rules and "work" involved.  They can have the free for all over the tennis ball....away from me.....not when I'm handing out goodies.

glenmar

If I am understanding DPU correctly, he objects to making the dog work for a treat.  He has no issue with food rewards but doesn't like to see them used as a reward for a task completed?  And only gives treats as a snack and a social occassion.

If that's the case then I guess it just boils down to one's philosophy of training.

I believe in actively training my dogs throughout their entire lives.  If DPU can provide a simple, effective reward that goes along with a marker, something that can be repeatedly given to the dog in less than a second and does not interrupt the dog's behavior or state of mind, I'm happy to give it a try....but I need something that works for training a dog, not a snack break. 

But see there you run into the difference in philosophy that training is a short term thing and the rest of the lessons learned are just life, if I correctly understood what DPU meant.

I'm somewhere in between.  While my dogs get ongoing training, it's pretty informal and spontanious.  I'm not sure I can all it life lessons because I deliberately teach when an opportunity arises.  With Tyler, it was learning how to be a therapy dog, with Thor, we've started some tracking in the past few months  With Theo, it was opening the fridge for me.  All have shown me a little something that they enjoy and I've taken that and used it to continue to teach them.

I can remember, many years ago, being so very anxious to be done with High School.  Being out of school was huge for me, NOT because I didn't want to learn, but because in public school thinking and challenging and questioning were discouraged.  We were to learn whatever the textbooks SAID we were to learn.  But, when the opportunity arose, I DID go back to school, earn my degree, and honestly, I love learning....but not so much in a structured "it's this way only" environment.  I take classes on a pretty regular basis even now, because I enjoy learning new things.

Why would my dogs not also enjoy learning?

** already addressed **

So DPU, how do you train your dogs?  How do you teach a sit?
 

glenmar

But see there you run into the difference in philosophy that training is a short term thing and the rest of the lessons learned are just life, if I correctly understood what DPU meant.

Right.

So my question would be....are you (a general "you" for anyone) for or against using treats while actively training and shaping specific behaviors? If you are against using treats, what do you use in conjunction with your marker?  How do you communicate to the dog without interrupting the focus and the behavior?

Liesje

If that's the case then I guess it just boils down to one's philosophy of training.

I think it's always going to boil down to this, whatever the subject.

On this subject, some people train with praise, others such as myself train with food.  DPU (and possibly others who have not weighed in) believe that it is wrong to use a basic need such as food to train a dog, whereas I believe it's necessary to use a basic need, though not always food.  But then, since I view praise and affection as being a basic need, it's clear that our philosophies differ greatly.  Either affection is a basic need and thus using it is exactly the same as using food, or it is not, and is therefore something that can be justifiably withheld.  To me, withholding affection from a dog is just as cruel as starving it, so I can't reconcile myself to the idea that it is a "better" reward for training because it isn't manipulating a dog's basic needs....when it is in fact a basic need and I don't actually believe that using those is some kind of manipulation. 

It's important to be flexible.  As I've said, Ben is most responsive to treats at any time except at the park, when he wants a tennis ball instead.  I'm not talking kibble here, I have literally seen him leave a piece of garlic chicken liver on the grass to chase a tennis ball instead, and it doesn't even work if I hide the ball because he knows I have it.  In the house, he'd rather have food.  At the end of a great agility run, we have a special tug toy that he sees at no other time, and he loves that.  I don't train with food to the exclusion of all other rewards, I'm simply not against using it, and it's a part of my training toolbox. 

For that matter, there is very little I am wholeheartedly against, and every item in that category is something I think is truly cruel or pain inducing to the dog.  There are a great many things I am uncomfortable with, but I acknowledge that at some point, with a future dog who is different than Ben, I may need to become comfortable with them if necessary.  To the greatest extent possible, I think we shouldn't say "I'd never to that" or "I am totally against that" because we never know when we will find ourselves boxed in by our own prejudices. 

tashakota

So DPU, how do you train your dogs?  How do you teach a sit? 

Sometime I get a headstart and the foster already knows how to sit.  It becomes apparent during snack time.  To continue the reinforcement if the sit is there.  I say "sit" along with a hand signal and when the dog sits, I shout "WHAT A GOOD GIRL!" and then wrap my arms around the dog, give a big hug while making a squeezing sound and then pat the dog all over.  And then when I am done, I ask the dog "you want another hug" and then I repeat.  I do this all the time.

If the sit is not there, I wait until I see the behavior starting and then the reward is the same as above.  Fun for the dog, fun for me, and I increased the emotional bond to boot.

Benedict

But then, since I view praise and affection as being a basic need, it's clear that our philosophies differ greatly.  Either affection is a basic need and thus using it is exactly the same as using food, or it is not, and is therefore something that can be justifiably withheld.  To me, withholding affection from a dog is just as cruel as starving it, so I can't reconcile myself to the idea that it is a "better" reward for training because it isn't manipulating a dog's basic needs....when it is in fact a basic need and I don't actually believe that using those is some kind of manipulation. 

It's important to be flexible. 

Getting closer to exploring the needs of the dog.  I don't know if everyone agrees on what the basic needs of a dog are and if those needs can be categorized and ordered.  I do believe there are biological needs, food being one that support life and then there are needs that affect quality of life.  And yes there are pleasurable needs.  I also believe there is an order to needs and lower level needs have to be satisifed first before moving on to satisfy other needs.   Praise rewards is showing affection and this is not in the same category as food or in the same category as pleasurable food.  As Snownose and I keep saying, you have to witness a dog who is solely working on the lowest need and nothing else to fully understand the objection to always using food as a reinforcer.  Most dog owner's dog are in a home, a family situation, and are quite well taken care of.  I believe those dogs are fullfilling their needs in a structured order that is not readily seen by the owner.  Thats our difference, not traninng philosphies.

Added because I got a "Ooop" before finishing.

For affection and praise, it is always there, only shown differently and it can never be withheld, unlike food.  Once a strong bond is established, strengthened and maintained the only way it disenigrates is through neglect and time.  That is cruel, IMO and that is when the owner's life value of the dog decreases. 

DPU

I say "sit" along with a hand signal and when the dog sits, I shout "WHAT A GOOD GIRL!" and then wrap my arms around the dog, give a big hug while making a squeezing sound and then pat the dog all over.  And then when I am done, I ask the dog "you want another hug" and then I repeat.  I do this all the time.

See, if you did this to my dog, you would get bitten. Heck, if I did this to my dog, I might get bitten! This is just not a reinforcement that is at all pleasurable to my particular dog. He finds anything loud or particularly dramatic (movements, sounds, etc.) to be quite aversive. However, a quiet "good boy" (his preferred method of praise, which results in him wagging excitedly) will often lead to him getting too distracted by the praise to focus on whatever I'm asking him to do (such as "hold still so I can get your leash on" - something I personally don't consider a "trick" but rather a necessary behavior, and therefore something that needs to be trained and reinforced).

My BF's family dog, on the other hand, loves nothing more than a big hug, a head rub, and loud and excited vocalizing. He LOVES it. Food and praise work equally well as rewards with him, so we use both, quite successfully.

My dog was a "rescue" (perhaps a "perfect rescue" to some, since he was originally purchased from a breeder and had a loving home through puppyhood until his previous owner died). My BF's family dog was seriously neglected, incredibly emaciated, ill, and probably abused. He came through a rescue organization (was in a foster home for 1 week).

I don't understand what we're debating anymore! Can't we all agree?

1) Food works as a very good motivator for some dogs, in some situations

2) Praise can also be a good motivator for some dogs, in some situations

3) Toys, games, and other things can also be good motivators for some dogs, in some situations

Why don't we instead talk about particular situations in which it would be preferable to use food or something else? Or particular dogs with whom one form of reward would make more sense than another? Instead of trying to make blanket statements about what is appropriate for "all" dogs?
 

DPU

I say "sit" along with a hand signal and when the dog sits, I shout "WHAT A GOOD GIRL!" and then wrap my arms around the dog, give a big hug while making a squeezing sound and then pat the dog all over.  And then when I am done, I ask the dog "you want another hug" and then I repeat.  I do this all the time.

I shout "WHAT A GOOD GIRL!" and then wrap my arms around the dog, give a big hug while making a squeezing sound and then pat the dog all over. 

oh, um, what to say. Most dogs in my experience would find being shouted at and then hugged incredibly demotivating. Many would bite you- you do know that most dogs absolutely HATE being hugged?

well, I have nothing to say after hearing this. All credibility has been lost IMHO....

mudpuppy

I shout "WHAT A GOOD GIRL!" and then wrap my arms around the dog, give a big hug while making a squeezing sound and then pat the dog all over. 

oh, um, what to say. Most dogs in my experience would find being shouted at and then hugged incredibly demotivating. Many would bite you- you do know that most dogs absolutely HATE being hugged?

well, I have nothing to say after hearing this. All credibility has been lost IMHO....

Its all in the foreplay, you should try it.  Amazing, I can count over 30 shelter dogs that came into my home of different breed, size, and gender. All with some kind of health issue, behavior issue, and social issue.....AND I can go against the law of **content removed, rude/sarcastic/baiting** nature and be able to hug the dog.  That really shows the power of affection and limited dog experience of at least one person.

DPU

Getting closer to exploring the needs of the dog.  I don't know if everyone agrees on what the basic needs of a dog are and if those needs can be categorized and ordered.  I do believe there are biological needs, food being one that support life and then there are needs that affect quality of life. 

Studies in rats, apes and human infants have proven that physical affection is necessary for life, and is thus a basic "biological need".  I'm honestly not sure if a study has been has been done on puppies but I am willing to put myself out there as saying I believe the basic physical needs of all mammals to be the same.  Food, water, an appropriate home or shelter, physical contact.  Human babies can die if not touched....in rats, if the infant rat isn't touched by its mother for a sufficient period of time it will slow down its metabolism which will eventually lead to death.   Touching does support life and it is necessary for it, it's not simply a quality of life issue. 

I concede the point that we are discussing adult dogs here, or at least puppies past the infancy stage, but if touch is necessary to make it past the infancy stage then it is a basic biological need.   

DPU

Its all in the foreplay, you should try it.

So, uh, whatcha doing later today?

Sorry! Couldn't resist. I'm bad.