Food Rewards - For and against..

DPU

My mission has always been to increase the life value of the shelter dog.

Please explain this? I don't understand what you mean by "life value" and it seems to be something that is very important to your beliefs, so perhaps the reason I am not understanding you is because I am not understanding what this concept means. 

DPU

I am not giving up.  My mission has always been to increase the life value of the shelter dog.  Even though we share our real experiences, there is not the least bit of emphathy shown.  I must admit I do give credos to KMac for extending empathy and she freely admits that she might feel differently if she did have the real experience.  I thought her stating why she uses food treats only for a short time in beginning of training would help as a bridge.  But she apparently has her own agenda. 

Wellp, I've done rescue, I volunteer for the shelter, and I sometimes use food rewards *gasp*.  I've never had a difficult time reconciling it, nor have I ever met anyone else that I work with at the rescue and the shelter that has such aversions to using treats with the dogs.  I use what ever reward the dog seems to want.  Most of them like the treats.  Some of them prefer a certain toy.  There's a few really shut down ones that won't take either and simply cannot handle any form of reward for a while until they observe that humans will no longer beat them.  Each dog is evaluated by a professional animal behaviorist who ultimately makes the call on how we should proceed.  I guess I don't see the big deal with some dogs really liking treats.  Same for cats.  I always give my cat rescues their favorite treats.

timsdat

DPU

This is the kind of thing that is going to drive me away from this forum.  We had a discussion on this, a very long thread, and what I took away was that this is stardard practice amongst responsible breeders, that is, it is acceptable practice

I remember being in that discussion and nowhere was it stated that it is a standard or acceptable practice to dump a dog in a shelter.

Nope, I just looked at the thread and you did not participate.  And again, no one said "shelter" in this thread, but who really knows what happens to ALL of the dogs that the responsible breeder gives up.

Liesje

DPU

I am not giving up.  My mission has always been to increase the life value of the shelter dog.  Even though we share our real experiences, there is not the least bit of emphathy shown.  I must admit I do give credos to KMac for extending empathy and she freely admits that she might feel differently if she did have the real experience.  I thought her stating why she uses food treats only for a short time in beginning of training would help as a bridge.  But she apparently has her own agenda. 

 

Wellp, I've done rescue, I volunteer for the shelter, and I sometimes use food rewards *gasp*.  I've never had a difficult time reconciling it, nor have I ever met anyone else that I work with at the rescue and the shelter that has such aversions to using treats with the dogs.  I use what ever reward the dog seems to want.  Most of them like the treats.  Some of them prefer a certain toy.  There's a few really shut down ones that won't take either and simply cannot handle any form of reward for a while until they observe that humans will no longer beat them.  Each dog is evaluated by a professional animal behaviorist who ultimately makes the call on how we should proceed.  I guess I don't see the big deal with some dogs really liking treats.  Same for cats.  I always give my cat rescues their favorite treats.

Ok, have you ever rescued a dog hours away from death and not knowing what said dog would be like........or just dogs that have been tested?

DPU

And again, no one said "shelter" in this thread,

Yes, you did:

DPU

Timsdat, have you been to a shelter and ask about the stories behind the dogs.  Not stretching at all.  Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

If we were wrong in our understanding of what you meant by this, you should simply have cleared up the misunderstanding.  As a writer, I do sometimes assume that people phrase their thoughts the way I would, and I do concede that I should try not to do that.  With regards to the above, were it ME saying that, my intention would be to put forth the idea that dogs wind up in shelters after they have outlived their usefulness to breed, as nowhere in the wording is there any indication that this:  

DPU

Timsdat, have you been to a shelter and ask about the stories behind the dogs.  Not stretching at all. 

Is a separate thought from this:  

DPU

Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

Again, if I/we were wrong, you should simply have corrected us, and we could have avoided 2 pages of off-topic conversation.   

DPU

Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

If it helps you understand then that sentence should have been a new paragraph.  It is still a true statement whether those dogs are primarily rehomed or they end up in shelters.  As I stated in another post, who really knows what happens to ALL of those dogs that originate from a responsible breeder.  Maybe some do end up in shelter. 

I am surprised at your focus on that and not on the plight of the dog that ends up rehomed or in shelter because the dog owner worth placed on the dog.  And, that worth can be devalued if the dog does not earn the "paycheck".  I think Snownose is right and for some it is not in their relm of comprehension.

DPU

DPU

Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

If it helps you understand then that sentence should have been a new paragraph.  It is still a true statement whether those dogs are primarily rehomed or they end up in shelters.  As I stated in another post, who really knows what happens to ALL of those dogs that originate from a responsible breeder.  Maybe some do end up in shelter. 

I am surprised at your focus on that and not on the plight of the dog that ends up rehomed or in shelter because the dog owner worth placed on the dog.  And, that worth can be devalued if the dog does not earn the "paycheck".  I think Snownose is right and for some it is not in their relm of comprehension.

Clearly there was a miscommunication, I thank you for clearing that up.

As for my focus/opinions, the plight of the shelter dog is really for another thread.  If you were to start one, I would happily share my opinions, an clarify just exactly what it is I do to help shelter dogs.   

DPU

Nope, I just looked at the thread and you did not participate. 

Just to clear up that point.

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/9105.aspx?PageIndex=8

timsdat

Just to clear up that point.

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/9105.aspx?PageIndex=8

You are absolutely correct and I did go through 8 pages of that thread and if I went to 3 more post, I would have seen your post.

Here it is:

I wonder how many of the people posting here that are so against re-homing dogs have much experience with breeder re-homed dogs.  You talk like these dogs are like some sort of worn out shoes and nothing could be further from the truth.  I know people that specifically look for getting an adult dog from a breeder or show person for a lot of the reasons that have been listed.  In fact I know dogs that have gone on to high levels of achievement in agility, obedience, and other pursuits and a good number of them that went on to become therapy dogs or just spoiled members of families.  To expect a breeder to keep every dog that they have ever owned is silly,  then you would call breeders hoarders,  they want whats best for the dog and a good number of times that means letting the dog have a second career with another family.  These dogs aren't dumped on anyone, people actively seek them out.

Rehomed or maybe placed in a shelter is the same thing to me.  I don't think it is silly to expect the breeder to keep every dog. 

Having participated heavily in this thread I would rather not put on my "staff boots", but I am the only one awake and I HAVE repeatedly asked that this thread get back to topic and a new thread or threads be started for breeder ethics/shelter dogs etc.  The next request will be from myself as Admin, and if it's not followed then I will be forced to issue warnings.   

The title is "Food Rewards - For and against.  My position is very limited For and against using food to make a dog perform at will for the human.

DPU

My position is very limited For and against using food to make a dog perform at will for the human.

Make a dog perform.  I don't believe that I have ever had to make my dog perform.  Once they learn what I want them to do they willingly do it and they get rewarded for it.

I guess that you could say then if you use any type of reward for a behavior (treats, toys, affection) you are making the dog perform. 

I use food rewards along with anything else that is(PR, not corrections) motivating to my dogs when training.  I also give treats without them performing or training.  When my alarm goes off, each dog wiggles out from under the covers and we go through the am routine of licks, cheek rubs (they like to rub their cheeks against mine) belly rubs and stretching.  I get up, two to of my dogs then go back under the covers.  While the rest of us go downstairs, whether it be a half hour, an hour + or a few minutes until their regular feeding time.  The 3 downstairs with me, play, go outside etc, while the other two sleepy heads remain upstairs.  The second I start to prepare the am meal, I hear them getting up and flying downstairs.

I make sure my food rewards and treats are homemade, I don't want my dogs filling up on store purchased treats that are full of dyes and fillers.  If I do purchase treats, it is typically holistic and natural.

I clicker train and it isn't any different than what others have already posted, high rate in the beginning fading to variable and jackpots along with praise/toys etc.  Depends on what we are training and the skill level of the dog etc.  Also depends on the dog.  None of my dogs have missed a meal in their lives, although those meals can be reduced if I am at the stage where high food rewards are being used.  The rewards are highly nutritious, therefore a reduced meal doesn't effect them negatively and I don't want them getting too thin or too fat.

I have done a lot of rescue work over the years and have never had trouble training with clickers and food rewards with these dogs.........including a dog that wouldn't allow anyone to touch her for 4 yrs (she had been 'trained' with harsh corrections) and starved to 'change' her attitude.

DPU

If it helps you understand then that sentence should have been a new paragraph.  It is still a true statement whether those dogs are primarily rehomed or they end up in shelters.  As I stated in another post, who really knows what happens to ALL of those dogs that originate from a responsible breeder.  Maybe some do end up in shelter. 

Oh, I'm not arguing that purebred dogs don't end up in shelters.  I work at a shelter and see them all the time.  In fact, it's not surprising to find half or even more than half of the dogs in the shelter are purebreds.  It's disgusting.

But dogs from responsible breeders do not end up in shelters, period.  I've looked into breeders before and kept them on my bookmark list.  Everyday I check all the sections of the German Shepherds in shelters and rescues on the forum and if I ever see one in there that came from a breeder, they are immediately blacklisted (for me) and I would never consider them for any dogs or training.  Sorry, you let your dogs go to a shelter and you are not only not a responsible breeder, you are not a responsible person. 

Yes, it is possible that breeders know exactly where their dogs are and what they are doing.  I correspond with Kenya's breeder more often than my own mother and she is a friend and mentor to me.  Nothing you can say about her will change my mind because you don't know her.  We talk about Kenya's progress at least on a weekly basis and I know tons about all of her other dogs, where they are, what they are doing.  I can tell you who owns the dog and what sports or training they are working on, and I'm not even the breeder.  I know when one dies, I know when one is born.  The new human relationships I made through Kenya are as valuable to me as my other relationships with non-dog friends.  Those people are like family to me.  She also had a very good friendship with another German Shepherd person and when that person was trying to get rid of one of her dogs, their friendship ended.  I found out what that person had done with the dog and now I refuse to speak to her as well.  I will have no part in any situation where a dog is dumped for whatever reason.

Anyway, as for food I'm not uncomfortable using it.  Both of my dogs grew up getting treats and it's a fun thing for them, so I'm not going to take it away.  I don't use meals as a training tool and they often get treats just for looking cute.  If they come in the kitchen while I'm preparing my dinner and don't jump all over the counter, they get some big jerky strips.  There's no "performing" involved; they offered a behavior on their own and since they are good dogs I think they deserve their treats.  If that makes my dogs puppets....whatever.

DPU

rwbeagles

DPU

So you are saying that the only reason your dogs get up in the morning is because of food.  Nothing else drives them?

LOL...this one's easy to answer....yes!

It's actually the reason there are dogs at all...ready access to easily obtained food. Kinda makes one feels used...lol.

Wow, not in my house.  The order is 1.) greet me with affection  2.) Got to pee  3.)  feed me

I agree with Gina here. Must be a corgi and beagle thing. Little four-legged vacuums.

As for using food rewards, I am very much in favor of it provided the dog views food as a reward. With Ares, food is the only viable reward. For him, praise and petting are not very much appreciated, and the only way to get him remotely interested in a toy is to tap into his resource guarding.

With most of my dogs, food is a nice low-medium value motivator. They don't get as hyped up and distracted by food as they would with a toy or with praise, but they gladly will take food as a reward. It allows them to know that they did something I liked while they still retain the focus on their training.

I have worked with dogs that aren't food motivated, and for them I would find something else to use.