Food Rewards - For and against..

DPU

Cool, I seem to be the only one that gets greeted lovingly from my dogs first thing in the morning.

Would like to make a (ought to be unnecessary) comment that Rascal will often ignore his food in favor of having attention from me (if I walk away from the room where his food is, he will typically grab a mouthful of it and bring it near me to eat, or will just go back to eat it later). He also is quite well fed, has never in his life been starved, and was free-fed for quite a long time (but isn't anymore). Despite all this, food rewards are still the most successful way of teaching him a new behavior, and he enjoys training sessions with food more than training sessions without food.

Why do my dogs get up in the morning?  Three are upstairs, three are downstairs in unlatched crates because that's where they choose to sleep  The three upstairs get up to follow me around the house...to my office, to get coffee, etc.  The three DOWNstairs prefer to sleep in.

DPU

Cool, I seem to be the only one that gets greeted lovingly from my dogs first thing in the morning. 

No, you aren't the only one.

I spend a good 15-20 minutes in bed doing the morning "snuggle session" with my guys before we crawl out of bed. This is after the alarm sounds, but before I get up. It starts with a hit of the alarm, and I lie back down. Then I feel the first movement, the morning stretch under the blankets (Gaci sometimes sleeps under the blankets, especially with how cold its been lately). Then the lump under the blanket slowly moves forward and she pokes her head out with a quick morning lick. This is usually followed by a flop onto the back for the morning belly rub, combined with a short bitey-hand game (I call it "I'm gonna getcha!";) while she wiggles on her back with glee and paws at my outstretched hand and mouths it (yes, this is taught and encouraged by me as a game, and done only when asked for.....I don't have mouthy dogs....before the accusation arises I'll clear that up).

By this time Shimmer has awoke and wormed her way up on the other side of me, doing her little "morning crawl" that she does, and sneaks in her own good morning lick (it used to be accompanied by a paw, but that's not so fun in the morning when the closest thing to reach is your face, so we redirected away from that). She most appreciates being talked to and touched, any games like I do with Gaci above get her too riled up first thing in the morning, so I'll spend some time with her stroking her and massaging her ears, asking how her night was.

The other two dogs that share my bed at the moment have similar greetings, all individual.

Eventually I'll say "time to get up!" and the dogs will jump off the bed as I crawl out (I sometimes wish I had the same morning zest that dogs awake with every morning!), and then we all walk together to the back door and they go out to pee.

That's basically a typical morning, every morning, for me. The only difference being on the weekend it happens more naturally rather than to an alarm, and the dogs usually wake ME up with the same gestures as they would if an alarm went off.

The only time things are different is if for some reason one of them is outright asking me to come let them outside, if they really need to go to the bathroom. In that case I just do as they need. It's not often, but it has happened, but my guys are great at clearly communicating to me when they need to go out during the night/morning.

Cita

like chocolates. They are meant neither to nourish nor to eliminate hunger, but rather to provide palatal pleasure to the person/animal consuming them. I personally don't see how providing pleasure beyond simple sustenance could be linked to intentionally depriving something of its basic needs, but perhaps that's just because of my personal biases.

I agree with you but generally minus the "training" part.  I give my dogs treats with nothing attached, no expectations.  As I have said, I don't want an EMPLOYER-EMPLOYEE relationship with my dog. 

DPU

I agree with you but generally minus the "training" part.  I give my dogs treats with nothing attached, no expectations.  As I have said, I don't want an EMPLOYER-EMPLOYEE relationship with my dog. 

And motivating a dg with treats is NOT synonymous with an "employer/employee" relationship with a dog, though if that's the kind of relationship someone has with their pet I don't personally have an issue with it.

My relationship with Ben is certainly not employer/employee.  And I DO motivate with food.   

Kim_MacMillan

DPU

Cool, I seem to be the only one that gets greeted lovingly from my dogs first thing in the morning. 

No, you aren't the only one.

I spend a good 15-20 minutes in bed doing the morning "snuggle session" with my guys before we crawl out of bed.

I don't think I can ever live without that kind of relationship with my dogs.

Benedict

And motivating a dg with treats is NOT synonymous with an "employer/employee" relationship with a dog, though if that's the kind of relationship someone has with their pet I don't personally have an issue with it.

My relationship with Ben is certainly not employer/employee.  And I DO motivate with food.   

Funny, I often see here the use of "paychecks" when it comes to food rewards.  I can see if "paychecks" are not earned by the dog then they are "fired" and end up in the shelter.  Amazing how it doesn't work that way when affection is used as an award.  The greater the human-dog bond, the greater the life value.

I spend a lot of personal time helping individual shelters dogs, so yes I personally have an issue with an "employer/employee" relationship because in my mind it represents a certain measure of the life value of the dog. 

DPU

I spend a lot of personal time helping individual shelters dogs, so yes I personally have an issue with an "employer/employee" relationship because in my mind it represents a certain measure of the life value of the dog. 

DPU, would you prefer to think of it as a parent/child relationship? Are you against parents asking their children to work (such as chores) for a reward (such as an allowance, or dessert)?

DPU

Funny, I often see here the use of "paychecks" when it comes to food rewards.  I can see if "paychecks" are not earned by the dog then they are "fired" and end up in the shelter.  Amazing how it doesn't work that way when affection is used as an award.  The greater the human-dog bond, the greater the life value.

Aren't you stretching it a little bit. 

DPU

I spend a lot of personal time helping individual shelters dogs,

And there is a big difference.  My dogs never have been deprived of attention/affection so they don't know what it is like to go without it so they aren't craving it to the point where it can become obsessive.

They are never deprived of their meals.  The treats for training is extra.

Cita

DPU, would you prefer to think of it as a parent/child relationship? Are you against parents asking their children to work (such as chores) for a reward (such as an allowance, or dessert)?

Good lord, no comparison and not even close in life values.  For some people, dogs are disposable because they don't perform or the dog has "issues".  When the life value of the dog is increased and increased because of affection, not food, then the dog becomes less disposable.

DPU

Benedict

And motivating a dg with treats is NOT synonymous with an "employer/employee" relationship with a dog, though if that's the kind of relationship someone has with their pet I don't personally have an issue with it.

My relationship with Ben is certainly not employer/employee.  And I DO motivate with food.   

Funny, I often see here the use of "paychecks" when it comes to food rewards.  I can see if "paychecks" are not earned by the dog then they are "fired" and end up in the shelter.  Amazing how it doesn't work that way when affection is used as an award.  The greater the human-dog bond, the greater the life value.

I spend a lot of personal time helping individual shelters dogs, so yes I personally have an issue with an "employer/employee" relationship because in my mind it represents a certain measure of the life value of the dog. 

I'm not saying food rewards aren't used that way, and as I said, I don't have an issue with it.  What I am saying is that one does NOT necessarily mean the other, and the assumption that using food rewards automatically means such a relationship is wrong.  I think you must have a very low opinion of many members of this board if you assume that if a dog doesn't earn his treats then he gets dumped at the RSPCA, and unless you have even one example of a dog owned by someone on this board being rehomed for the SOLE reason that training with treats didn't work, it's a really horrible generalisation to make about the methods used by people on this board.  I understand that you believe your relationship with your dogs to be the best, and believe me, I'm happy for you - it is there we experience the true joys of dog ownership.  Nevertheless, you should perhaps give some credence to the idea that you are not the first or only person to achieve that, and nor will you be the last. 

My DH and I most certainly do not have an employer, employee relationship, but do we reward each other for a job well done, and do those rewards mean one of us is likely to do a similar or equal job again?  Sure.  I recently promised (and made good on that promise) dinner out to my DH if he cleaned out the attic.  He did, and we had a nice meal out.  He surprises me with flowers when he learns that I've ironed all his shirts.  Earning a reward is part of life, why would I deny my dog the reward he'd most like to have?

And on that note, in case you haven't seen it, somewhere on page 2 or 3 I clarified my question to you. 
 

timsdat

The treats for training is extra.

Me too, minus the "training".  I refer to the treat dispensing as snacks, a very nice and pleasurable social event.

Timsdat, have you been to a shelter and ask about the stories behind the dogs.  Not stretching at all.  Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

DPU

Some responsible breeders give up the dogs when the dog has used up its usefullness to breed.

Any breeder who does that is not responsible, by the very definition of the word. 

Benedict

Any breeder who does that is not responsible, by the very definition of the word. 

Thank you, beat me to it.

DPU

Good lord, no comparison and not even close in life values.  For some people, dogs are disposable because they don't perform or the dog has "issues".  When the life value of the dog is increased and increased because of affection, not food, then the dog becomes less disposable.

Huh?!?!?  Sorry I'm totally lost with that one.  I have one dog that is not very affectionate.  She is mildly affectionate with me and not at all affectionate with anyone else.  So her life is less valuable because of her inherent temperament? Ohhhhkaaaaay.......