Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

houndlove

Playing with a toy is not the same as getting pet and praised. It's more along the lines of a food reward.

You are correct, but said dog was all over the handler, there was plenty of rubbing, scratching, petting and verbal praise involved......

BIG difference between rewarding a dog with play and rewarding a dog with physical affection.  She's not food-obsessed, just motivated by it. She's also motitvated by balls, praise, frisbees, a high-pitched squeaky voice, and my chasing her. You try to scratch her ears or rub her chest or rub her butt as a reward and she'll give you a dirty look "mom we're working here, not now".

oh, and sometimes in order to get debates going one re-phrases what people have said in a, how shall I put it, in a provocative way. I don't really care what you do with your dogs, I don't expect you to care what I do, I just hope we all constantly question ourselves and strive to improve and learn.

Chuffy

are you saying you felt uncertain and that is what led to your dogs responding differently?  Or are you saying you tried a different method and THAT'S why they responded differently?  Or is it both?

I think both. Like I said, I realized later that something "seeped in". Something that, as I look back, felt like a black poison. The first thing I consciously noticed was that Jaia and B'asia were "spinning out", misbehaving a lot, not being themselves, being "brats". And as I would go to correct them (just a small verbal correction), I would get these mental messages of "being abusive", "shutting them down", 'breaking their spirit" and all the phrases that are used on this board (and others) to convince people who use corrections of just how bad they are.

Chuffy

I am suggesting being open  minded about this and really studying this from all angles before discarding the idea.

I did and I continue to do so.  

Chuffy

Doubt can sometimes be helpful!  Sometimes it can lead you to an even better place.  But only if you act on it!  Am I making sense? 

You are making sense and I totally agree. But this wasn't a "conscious doubt". This was like an insight after the fact, a revelation that I had and then could look back on it and see that I had been feeling doubt without really realizing it. I'm not even going to ask if that made sense...

Chuffy

I would just like to reiterate here - just what was it you were doing that you believed was doing harm, or not right for them?  Was it worrying?  Or was it a specific method, or technique?

It was both. I was worrying and I wasn't giving them the direction they were accustomed to. I can't say it was a specific method or technique because I wasn't even conscious of it at the time. Only as I look back and examine my feelings and actions can I evaluate it. But, for the past 2-3 weeks, I hadn't been as strict (NILIF-wise) and when they did misbehave, where my first instinct was to do one thing, I second-guessed myself and usually didn't do anything. I just kind of gave up. I felt so unsure, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing.

I don't think my mind is closed. And just try and keep me from debating! I know I haven't reached perfection. I don't know why you would say that. Nobody's perfect. And I have gotten better and better dealing with my dogs. There's no reason to stop now. It's just that from now on, when I make a change, it's going to be conscious. It's going to be because I've thought something out ahead of time and come to the conclusion that something different is better for me and my dogs. And its going to be a change because I want it and I think it's good, not because someone else berated me into feeling like a bad dog mom. Do you see the difference?

Chuffy

"Don't Knock It If You Haven't Tried It".

Have YOU tried eating broken glass? Have you eaten raw oysters? Have you jumped out of an airplane? There are just some things I KNOW I don't want to do or wouldn't like, even without trying them.

mudpuppy

BIG difference between rewarding a dog with play and rewarding a dog with physical affection. 

I am just making sure that you read my last post......you know the physical human interaction part......

mudpuppy

She's not food-obsessed, just motivated by it.

Yessss........morbidly obese people are not food obsessed, they are motivated by it and just want to eat it all the time.....

FourIsCompany

It was both. I was worrying and I wasn't giving them the direction they were accustomed to. I can't say it was a specific method or technique because I wasn't even conscious of it at the time. Only as I look back and examine my feelings and actions can I evaluate it. But, for the past 2-3 weeks, I hadn't been as strict (NILIF-wise) and when they did misbehave, where my first instinct was to do one thing, I second-guessed myself and usually didn't do anything. I just kind of gave up. I felt so unsure, I didn't know what to do, so I did nothing.

I don't think my mind is closed. And just try and keep me from debating! I know I haven't reached perfection. I don't know why you would say that. Nobody's perfect. And I have gotten better and better dealing with my dogs. There's no reason to stop now. It's just that from now on, when I make a change, it's going to be conscious. It's going to be because I've thought something out ahead of time and come to the conclusion that something different is better for me and my dogs. And its going to be a change because I want it and I think it's good, not because someone else berated me into feeling like a bad dog mom. Do you see the difference?

It makes sense.  I just think, if you were feeling doubt, it might have been interesting to sit down and think WHY and examine what IS it that you do that you became less comfortable with....

When your dog goes to do something he shouldn't, do you "correct", or do you intercept with a desirable behaviour, or interrupt and redirect? 

It's a rhetorical question.  Rather than focusing on what you "shouldn't" have been doing in that moment, you may have got a more positive response (and felt less unsure yourself) if you had focused on what you wanted to do instead! 

As you say, it was not a conscious change on your part, but once you recognised it, I think it's interesting that you dismissed the idea and instead of following it through and VERY interesting that you KNOW that a slightly different approach is definitely not for you... so much so that you compare it to eating glass! 

Yessss........morbidly obese people are not food obsessed, they are motivated by it and just want to eat it all the time.....

Huh?

Chuffy

I just think, if you were feeling doubt, it might have been interesting to sit down and think WHY and examine what IS it that you do that you became less comfortable with..

I did! And it's nothing I do that I felt uncomfortable with. It was the accusations of:

luvmyswissy

Abusive,  Bad relationship, Cruel, Harmful, Shutdown, Harsh, Unfulfilled life, Roughly man-handled, Inhumane, Dogs suffering, Intimidate.  To make other’s feel like failures.  It's bulling effect, to try and be right. 

running through my head that I was uncomfortable with.  

Chuffy

When your dog goes to do something he shouldn't, do you "correct", or do you intercept with a desirable behaviour, or interrupt and redirect? 

I know you said it's rhetorical, but I'm going to answer it anyway. The answer is YES. My first preference is to intercept with a desirable behavior. Secondly, I interrupt and redirect. If neither of those are possible, I correct and then redirect. I always try to end by giving balanced information. (Don't do that, do this. Good boy!)

FourIsCompany

I did! And it's nothing I do that I felt uncomfortable with. It was the accusations of:

luvmyswissy

Abusive,  Bad relationship, Cruel, Harmful, Shutdown, Harsh, Unfulfilled life, Roughly man-handled, Inhumane, Dogs suffering, Intimidate.  To make other’s feel like failures.  It's bulling effect, to try and be right. 

It seems I am not fully understanding you... If you didn't think you were doing any of these things anyway, then at what point did the doubt creep in?  What I mean is, it wouldn't be when you were just sitting watching TV - it must have been when you were interacting with them in some wa, no?  It sounds as though you didn't follow this doubt through to a conclusion, but rather dismissed it as being rather too thin-skinned instead of - maybe I could learn something more here.... ???? 

snownose

mudpuppy

BIG difference between rewarding a dog with play and rewarding a dog with physical affection. 

 

I am just making sure that you read my last post......you know the physical human interaction part......

mudpuppy

She's not food-obsessed, just motivated by it.

Yessss........morbidly obese people are not food obsessed, they are motivated by it and just want to eat it all the time.....

Was that last line for real?????????  And, you can't figure out why we have these "us versus them" threads?   So, let me get this straight - you eat dinner every night.  Does that mean you are just motivated to eat, or are you obsessed???  You get paid each week.  Does that motivate you to go to work (yeah, I know, you love your job, too - so does my dog).  So, are you obsessed with money???   

I feel some doubt creeping in.... 

spiritdogs

Was that last line for real?????????  And, you can't figure out why we have these "us versus them" threads?   So, let me get this straight - you eat dinner every night.  Does that mean you are just motivated to eat, or are you obsessed???  You get paid each week.  Does that motivate you to go to work (yeah, I know, you love your job, too - so does my dog).  So, are you obsessed with money???

There is a member on this board, who claims that her dog is so motivated by the food that the dog can only concentrate on food, and not physical touch, and really doesn't want to be touched during training......isn't that somehow worrysome? I call that a fixation on food. As I said before, if I engage in training where my dogs actively avoid physical interaction with me to get to the food reward, I am gonna say there is something wrong.......total mechanical and disconnected approach.......

Yes, I eat dinner every night, but I am not disengaging from contact with my DH while getting to my dinner.

who claims that her dog is so motivated by the food that the dog can only concentrate on food, and not physical touch, and really doesn't want to be touched during training..

That's a complete mischaracterization, and I think you know it. It's not "so obsessed with food he doesn't want to be touched", it's "concentrating on working and is not in the mood for a lot of touch at that time."  Being obsessed with the food has nothing to do with it. Do I want to make out with my husband while I'm eating dinner? No, not really. Does that mean "I'm so obsessed with food I don't want to be touched"? No, there is just a time and place for everything.
 

houndlove

Do I want to make out with my husband while I'm eating dinner? No, not really. Does that mean "I'm so obsessed with food I don't want to be touched"? No, there is just a time and place for everything.

Physical praise for a dog is equal to making out with your DH .......lol........

Look at it however you want......a dog actively avoiding positive contact with a handler/owner is not my idea of having a good relationship with one's dog.....Just my humble opinion, though.......

Chuffy

It seems I am not fully understanding you...

Chuffy

It sounds as though you didn't follow this doubt through to a conclusion

Chuffy

maybe I could learn something more here.... ???? 

snownose

There is a member on this board, who claims that her dog is so motivated by the food that the dog can only concentrate on food, and not physical touch, and really doesn't want to be touched during training......isn't that somehow worrysome? I call that a fixation on food. As I said before, if I engage in training where my dogs actively avoid physical interaction with me to get to the food reward, I am gonna say there is something wrong.......total mechanical and disconnected approach.......

Snownose, I understand exactly where you are coming from.  It seems you have to be active in rescuing and rehabbing an emaciated shelter dog to comprehend this.  Not one emaciated dog in your life and working from a memory, but continue rescuing and observing the behavior of the dog as it tries to get back to balance with regards to food.  I have seen fixation on food because of starvation and I can also see a dog getting fixated when food is continuously used to "motivate" the dog.

houndlove

It's not "so obsessed with food he doesn't want to be touched", it's "concentrating on working and is not in the mood for a lot of touch at that time."

Sigh.........but the dog is always in the mood for food.......right? What do you call that?