Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

I think it might help if people think of what we are doing here as very akin to a debate- in a debate, two people take turns talking about their position on a topic. At the end of the debate, no one really expects either of the actual debaters to have changed their mind on the position; the purpose of the debate is for the debaters to think deeply about their position and why they hold it, and to educate/inform the audience; members of the audience may or may not leave the debate holding a different view than before the debate. Personal attacks, insults, and demands of proof are NOT part of proper debate format.

So in summary it's important and useful that people hold different positions on different issues- otherwise, there's nothing to talk about.

mudpuppy

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

Nah, I just think that super-strict NILIF isn't necessary for every dog, most dogs even.  I go to three different training classes a week and right now one of those is a class based on strengthening the relationship and bond with the dog (Kenya and I are in that one, Coke is in two others right now).  I'm never not signed up for at least one class at a time per dog.  I just think a lot of the "ground rules" people drilled into me before I got Kenya weren't really necessary.  The things I mentioned earlier like restricting access to toys, using meals to train, not feeding dogs until after training, not letting dogs on the furniture, not letting dogs play tug with each other.  I do the opposite because I like to watch my dogs play, I like having them with me on the furniture, I don't see different results whether I use kibble or treats or feed them before or after.  Maybe I'm just lucky...? 

mudpuppy

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

How do you know the relationship is just ok, and it's not at it's best?

Describe the best relationship and then we will decide if we have that or not......

DPU claims to be the expert on dog-human relationships, maybe she'll chime in and tell us..

mudpuppy

DPU claims to be the expert on dog-human relationships, maybe she'll chime in and tell us..

You are the one who made the statement.....you should be the one answering it......if you can't then you need to quit making statements on relationships between people and their dogs on this forum.....unless, you have some uber extra power we don't know about....

mudpuppy

I think it might help if people think of what we are doing here as very akin to a debate-

I've done debate, and I have to say a good debate doesn't involve assumptions, extreme claims that can never be backed up, etc. Demands for evidence do have a place in debate. I absolutely appreciate debate, and I have many of my best a-ha! moments while thinking through my responses in an argument.

Moreover, not everyone here wants to debate. You like it, I like it, but we should not hit other posters over the head with a debate if what they came for is a lively discussion or to share something personal. We do not have the right to force a debate on uninterested parties. That is rude, unkind, and not going to help people think more.
 

mudpuppy

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

I shook my head and rolled my eyes on this statement too.    Is this in the debate format?  Or is it part of the Personal attacks and insults section of NOT being part of the debate.  Honestly MP, do you really think your getting your point across to people like this? Sometimes I think your just into steamrolling your ideas and not really interested in educating people.  I do think you need to define "best relationship" and then maybe we can have some basis to think about.  What is your view, of the perfect relationship I am very intersted in hearing why might be better than mine with my dogs?  Do you know our relationships with my dogs or are you assuming that people don't have a good relationship becasue they don't agree with your ways, so they can't possibly have a good realtionship?

What makes you make statements like this?  What did you do 30 years ago that makes you so horrified now?  Explain please?  Were you abusive? 

ETA: For what is worth, I don't have to change anything I continually "build" on my realtionships wheather it by dog or human to make them the best relationships I can.

<<<<>>>>

mudpuppy, you wrote the above in the "Praise/Affection" thread....it seems your dog is so food obsessed that it will bypass affection and doesn't want to be touched while working.....I touch my dogs while training and it would be strange for me if my dog was actively avoiding contact with me .......so, is the above written a perfect example of your perfect relationship?

FourIsCompany

I have been realizing that I take the criticism on this board way too seriously. It "seeps in" when I'm not fully aware of it... If I don't watch it, I can almost be convinced that I'm "mean" or that I'm not doing all I could be doing "right" for my dogs, to fulfill their lives and make them all they can be. I have been noticing that lately, I'm worried about "damaging our relationship" like some people on the board talk about. I'm worried that they'll "shut down" or meet some other terrible fate at my hands because I use corrections with them. This feeling of not being good enough for my dogs has been growing over the past few weeks and I find myself being less "sure" of my methods and myself, if only subconsciously.

But that's what it's all about, isn't it? We should always be questioning ourselves, and questioning our relationships with our dogs. If we never question, if we never completely and fully investigate our own lives with dogs, we will never change them, and I can feel relatively confident that all of us, in some manner or other, has changed something about how we live with dogs over time.

Personally I think it's great that conversations had you questioning things. I think that's a huge thing, and something that needs to happen more often. It doesn't matter that in the end you went back to what you knew - what matters IS that you questioned it. Because there are people who do need to sit back and question how they live life with their dogs, no matter what "philosophy" they abide by.

I know I've sat back and wondered "What if I did this? What if I played the "leader" role? What if I tried this technique?" In the end I laughed about how silly most of it sounded, and I remember why I didn't do those things, as I have an amazing relationship with my guys, I honestly couldn't ask for anything better, but the point is I was thinking about it. And I think that is a goal here - to have people thinking, questioning, analyzing. It's how we grow, it's how we discover who we are, and who our dogs are.

So I think of this situation as a success, overall, since you did take the time to question your own motives. Even though one could argue why it didn't work for you, and find reasons why it didn't work, the point is you questioned yourself. And that's not a bad thing in my books. It's when people never question themselves or what they are doing that are the problem, IMO. Because if you never question, or look at something from another perspective, you have effectively shut your mind off from learning. And I think that is one of the world's greatest sins, if there are to be any sins at all.

(Note: I have read nothing but the first post of this page, so if this has been addressed already, I'll see it later when I get to read the whole thread!)

Kim_MacMillan

FourIsCompany

I have been realizing that I take the criticism on this board way too seriously. It "seeps in" when I'm not fully aware of it... If I don't watch it, I can almost be convinced that I'm "mean" or that I'm not doing all I could be doing "right" for my dogs, to fulfill their lives and make them all they can be. I have been noticing that lately, I'm worried about "damaging our relationship" like some people on the board talk about. I'm worried that they'll "shut down" or meet some other terrible fate at my hands because I use corrections with them. This feeling of not being good enough for my dogs has been growing over the past few weeks and I find myself being less "sure" of my methods and myself, if only subconsciously.

But that's what it's all about, isn't it? We should always be questioning ourselves, and questioning our relationships with our dogs. If we never question, if we never completely and fully investigate our own lives with dogs, we will never change them, and I can feel relatively confident that all of us, in some manner or other, has changed something about how we live with dogs over time.

Personally I think it's great that conversations had you questioning things. I think that's a huge thing, and something that needs to happen more often. It doesn't matter that in the end you went back to what you knew - what matters IS that you questioned it. Because there are people who do need to sit back and question how they live life with their dogs, no matter what "philosophy" they abide by.

I know I've sat back and wondered "What if I did this? What if I played the "leader" role? What if I tried this technique?" In the end I laughed about how silly most of it sounded, and I remember why I didn't do those things, as I have an amazing relationship with my guys, I honestly couldn't ask for anything better, but the point is I was thinking about it. And I think that is a goal here - to have people thinking, questioning, analyzing. It's how we grow, it's how we discover who we are, and who our dogs are.

So I think of this situation as a success, overall, since you did take the time to question your own motives. Even though one could argue why it didn't work for you, and find reasons why it didn't work, the point is you questioned yourself. And that's not a bad thing in my books. It's when people never question themselves or what they are doing that are the problem, IMO. Because if you never question, or look at something from another perspective, you have effectively shut your mind off from learning. And I think that is one of the world's greatest sins, if there are to be any sins at all.

(Note: I have read nothing but the first post of this page, so if this has been addressed already, I'll see it later when I get to read the whole thread!)

There you go, Kim, making perfect sense again...

Kim_MacMillan

We should always be questioning ourselves, and questioning our relationships with our dogs.

Oh, I agree. But if you read what I wrote, I said:

I take the criticism on this board way too seriously... I can almost be convinced that I'm "mean"

I'm not talking about being open-minded. I'm talking about people who don't know me criticizing me, my relationship with my dogs,  and my dogs themselves, saying their shut-down, when they have NO CLUE. Surely, Kim, you know what I mean. Because I know you've had your share of unfounded, harsh criticisms against you and your dogs.

I have addressed this in this thread but I'll say it again. This is not about being closed-minded and stubbornly turning away any and all advice, it's about being more in touch with what I know to be true, while being open to information to make things even better for me and my dogs.

And it's about not being intimidated to post when members are having problems with their dogs for fear of the assumptions and repercussions that run rampant every time someone posts about a problem.

like many working dogs, she acts offended if you try to pet her while she is working. When not working, she's a cuddle-bug. She's not the only dog like that- it's pretty common in working-breed dogs. I have another dog who happily accepts butt-scratches as a reward for working. Dogs are different in what motivates them.  

I don't know to explain in words the relationship between a dog and an owner; do you? all I know is when I think back about the relationship between a dog trained by traditional methods (the methods don't horrify me) and myself, which at the time I thought was a terrific relationship, now I consider it to have been a very flawed relationship; and the fact that I thought it was a great relationship horrifies me. How could I have thought that? But I did.

mudpuppy

like many working dogs, she acts offended if you try to pet her while she is working.

That seems very mechanical and disconnected to me, never mind the food obsession, doesn't that concern you? I have witnessed a working military dog while DH was in the service, the handler lived next door to us....this dog went through the so called "Traditional Military Training"....as a reward said dog was allowed to play with a toy and was all over the handler....

I'm only on page 2 here, so PLEASE bear with me! 

FourIsCompany

I have been realizing that I take the criticism on this board way too seriously. It "seeps in" when I'm not fully aware of it... If I don't watch it, I can almost be convinced that I'm "mean" or that I'm not doing all I could be doing "right" for my dogs, to fulfill their lives and make them all they can be. I have been noticing that lately, I'm worried about "damaging our relationship" like some people on the board talk about. I'm worried that they'll "shut down" or meet some other terrible fate at my hands because I use corrections with them. This feeling of not being good enough for my dogs has been growing over the past few weeks and I find myself being less "sure" of my methods and myself, if only subconsciously.

I'm not sure what you are saying here - are you saying you felt uncertain and that is what led to your dogs responding differently?  Or are you saying you tried a different method and THAT'S why they responded differently?  Or is it both?

FourIsCompany

And I realized yesterday that that is so much BS!! 

Not necessarily.  It COULD be, but not necessarily.  The fact that you had "cracks" in your own conviction might be rather telling, mightn't it?  Maybe there IS something missing in your relationship that you didn't see before?  I'm NOT saying that is the case - I am suggesting being open  minded about this and really studying this from all angles before discarding the idea.

FourIsCompany

And in all this worry, I'm presenting to them an unstable, unsure form of leader, which is just what I don't want to do!

Certainly WORRY, a lack of confidence etc. - these things will show through no matter WHAT training method you use or consider giving a try!  Sitting around WORRYING about it, but not actively thinking about - just what IS it I am worrying about?  CAN I change that?  COULD I make this even better?  How would I go about that?  And then taking the positive steps towards that goal.... yeah worrying about it but not thinking those things and taking action is likely going to show!!  But it doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean you (or anyone having these doubts I hasten to add) are WRONG in doubting.  Doubt can sometimes be helpful!  Sometimes it can lead you to an even better place.  But only if you act on it!  Am I making sense? 

FourIsCompany

I'm so glad I had this realization NOW before I did any real harm. Thank God dogs are so resilient. And thank God for these dogs, because in their "bratty" behavior, they TAUGHT me that what I was doing was falling far short of what they need. I had to look deep at what was going on with me to realize the mistakes I was making. And as soon as I snapped out of it, my well-behaved, wonderful, happy dogs reappeared. LOL

I would just like to reiterate here - just what was it you were doing that you believed was doing harm, or not right for them?  Was it worrying?  Or was it a specific method, or technique?

FourIsCompany

So, this is just my experience. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any other method of raising dogs OR learning something new, or even changing methods if that's what you want to do... but I won't again, let people's criticisms and belittling make me doubt what I'm doing.

Oh dear - it sounds as though you are closing your mind here!  It sounds as though you believe you have reached perfection and it COULDN'T be better, so you won't even keep your eyes and ears peeled and try in future.... now I am not saying your dogs will SUFFER, as they SEEM pretty happy right now.  But a closed mind is never good to debate with.

FourIsCompany

And my message is "Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke".

And a fine message indeed.  Here is another:

"Don't Knock It If You Haven't Tried It".
 

Playing with a toy is not the same as getting pet and praised. It's more along the lines of a food reward. Marlowe is not all that toy motivated but in the later stages of learning he'll happily work for a couple select toys (a squeaky tennis ball thrown, a couple minutes with the flirt pole), but he still doesn't like to be pet and touched a whole lot while training. I mean, he doesn't run away from it but you can tell it's not really stoking his fire. After we're done though he loves a nice hug and a good rub-down and snuggle. I see plenty of people trying to pet and touch their dogs while working who have never bothered to stop and see if that's what their dog really wants at that moment--it's so anathema to what so many people think a dog should want. They just assume, my dog likes being pet when we're at home watching TV, so that should motivate him in this circumstance too. It's not always the case.

I don't judge "disconnection" just on what I personally think a dog should be happy about at any given moment. Dogs will be happy about what they will be happy about.