Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

I learned a long time ago that you have to take things with a grain of salt on the internet. People are passionate about their own opinions (of course). you just need to take what works for you and go with it. If you learn things along the way and they work, great. It's best not to stress out over things you read on the internet. That's a hard lesson to learn sometimes, I know!
 

The beauty of the internet is if you are getting mad, irritated, annoyed etc by someone you can just get up and walk away! You don't have to continue the argument because in the end, who really cares? It's awesome :)

Carla, that is a great post and I agree with you........let the negativity of how to handle and train your dogs run off your back.....as I have noticed, most folks on here who believe in hands off and no inclusion of leadership have some neurotic or problem dogs .....except for some folks, who by the way we could never even get a glimpse of how their relationship is with their dogs, there are no pics and no videos......simply no evidence....almost like phantom dog owners.....or like the sex hotlines.... callers never know who is on the other end......lmbo.....

You are right about doing what works.....it has worked for me for years....my dogs are happy and I'll keep on doing what I have been........

I have said before and will say again that in my opinion, for whatever it's worth, the best kind of training/leadership/discipline/ownership is found in that overlapping space between what is most suitable to the individual dog in question and what is comfortable for the owner.  Owning a dog IS teamwork, even if you are the team leader and the dog is your "underling".  Everyone needs to find the method that works for their own particular team and to heck with everyone else.  

I do prefer a "hands off" approach with my dog.  That's me.  I get that not everyone else feels that way.  However, it WORKS in my situation because for Ben, the absolute worst (in his eyes) form of "punishment" is being denied access to something.  I can do that by body blocking, shutting him in the kitchen, turning around and walking the other way when he's on a leash, etc etc.  All of those are hands off but the most effective tool, bar none, of "disciplining" (in the punishment sense of the word), for our team.  It works for Ben and allows me to stay in my hands-off comfort zone. 

Everyone should do what works for them and their dog.   It is there, and only there IMHO, that dog ownership will be a true joy. 

FourIsCompany

I have been realizing that I take the criticism on this board way too seriously. It "seeps in" when I'm not fully aware of it... If I don't watch it, I can almost be convinced that I'm "mean" or that I'm not doing all I could be doing "right" for my dogs, to fulfill their lives and make them all they can be. I have been noticing that lately, I'm worried about "damaging our relationship" like some people on the board talk about. I'm worried that they'll "shut down" or meet some other terrible fate at my hands because I use corrections with them. This feeling of not being good enough for my dogs has been growing over the past few weeks and I find myself being less "sure" of my methods and myself, if only subconsciously

I agree that we should be able to take criticism and dissension in stride. I also thought I was doing right by Shadow before, when using corrections and lure/reward. Then, almost on a lark, I tried the clicker and busted my butt to understand the process of OC, in all of it's glorious quadrants. I used to disagree with Spiritdogs and Mudpuppy quite a bit. And they posted to me as they have posted to others. Tasking me, challenging me, at least that's how I viewed it. I have been here since Sept. 2005 and they haven't changed the way the post. The only thing that has changed is now they get edited for posting the way they have always posted. I'm not complaining, just noting a trend. Anyway, so I tried figuring at the worst, I will have found another way to give him treats and spoil him rotten and I will have proved it wrong or fallible and would then have some actual experience to comment from, not that experience is everything, nor am I implying that someone such as you hasn't used it. (And you know that I know that you have used and continue to use positive motivations and environmental management and punishment effectively. Viva la studded collar.) And I don't think you are a bad person if we disagree. FWIW, Glenda and I disagree on dog food. I feed Nutro Large Breed Adult Lamb Meal and Rice and she wouldn't feed it on a bet, having a fairly strong opinion against it. But we can agree on other things. Snownose and I might disagree about some things in training but we're both gonzo for northern breeds, especially Huskies, and we share pms during the holiday times and she's always interested to hear how DW and Jade are doing. And I know it's difficult to learn not to take things personally. I used to do so, all the time, myself. IOW, been there, done that.

I also like your thread title. Being of a scientific, mathematical, and engineering bent, I always appreciate the ancient engineer's saying, "if it works, don't fix it." And that works until you get another dog, right?

Even cats are different. My old cat Misty was an entirely different personality than Jade is.

And evidently, from what I could see in your tracking video, your dogs look happy.

Me, I'm always learning something new. As I pointed out in another thread about the actual creds for an animal behaviorist, I spent quite a bit of time in my trade (electrician) bonding neutral and ground at the first means of disconnect because that is required and that is what you do. It wasn't until a few years ago that I finally understood that is for the ground fault current path that is needed in order for a circuit breaker to trip in the event of an electrical short. Not to get oto technical but most breakers are thermal trip. The ground fault current path allows the breaker to be fed twice the current it is rated for, causing it to heat up and trip. New and more complete understanding is, in most cases, a good thing for me.

ETA: I realized I could have gotten even more techincal and described how I finally understood why we use 1.732, which is the square root of 3, in 3 phase power calculations. From two different angles, spherical trig and Pythagora's Theorem. But that might put everyone back to sleep.

I also realized when I wrote "Hands off", it sounds like that I have my hands on my dogs for correction all the time......error folks, not so.... I use bodyblocks, point fingers or use a voice correction....that's it......for in the world, I do not understand why I should fiddle with a clicker/treat and redirection for an unwanted behavior if I can just use my voice to stop unwanted behavior.....much simpler......it hasn't damaged my dogs.......as a matter of fact this pack runs like a well oiled machine......and as always I provide plenty of pics to give a look into our dog world with my happy dogs.....together......ahem... 

ron2

And that works until you get another dog, right?

I raised Cara and Mia together. They are littermates. But they couldn't be more different in personality and needs... And sure, I did treat them differently is some subtle ways. But the foundation of who I am and where I come from... the methods, the rules... were exactly the same. They are 2 completely different dogs.

snownose

Carla, that is a great post and I agree with you........let the negativity of how to handle and train your dogs run off your back.....as I have noticed, most folks on here who believe in hands off and no inclusion of leadership have some neurotic or problem dogs .....except for some folks, who by the way we could never even get a glimpse of how their relationship is with their dogs, there are no pics and no videos......simply no evidence....almost like phantom dog owners.....or like the sex hotlines.... callers never know who is on the other end......lmbo.....

You are right about doing what works.....it has worked for me for years....my dogs are happy and I'll keep on doing what I have been........

I have no idea who you are referring to, but no one is required to provide anyone with "evidence".  This isn't a court, it's a message board.  You can choose to believe whoever you want, and you have already established your alliances here very obviously.  But, since I do feel that your are mistaken about us having "neurotic dogs".  Professionally, I am listed as a CGC evaluator and as a Tester/Observer for Therapy Dogs, Inc.  To do the latter, you must have a working therapy dog.  I have two (three if you count Dancer at the Bridge).  Obviously, you don't qualify to work in that field without having a dog that obeys commands, and doesn't create a hazard by being obnoxious or unstable.  If you would like to PM me, I can at least send you a still shot of Sioux at the Massachusetts Councils on Aging conference in 2006.  We were asked to come and present on "Pets and the Elderly or Disabled Client", which was also a one day course given at Northern Essex Community College in Massachusetts.   
Pawsitive Connections, a program at my Area Agency on Aging, won the 2002 Caregiver Award from the National Committee to Preserve Social Security and Medicare, which was awarded to me in Washington, DC at their annual convention.  I am proud to be the founder, and still director of, that program: http://www.seniorcareinc.org/paws.html

 The photo on the web page that shows the little black and white dog - that's Dancer, doing her job.  I have a photo of me with Sioux at the MCOA conference, and will be happy to send it to you if you PM your email.  I can assure you that no Area Agency on Aging would allow these dogs to be mascots for a home care program, and travel about to councils on aging, day care centers, elder housing, nursing facilities, hospitals, and libraries, if they were not models of excellent canine behavior.  So, too bad - I don't do youtube.

Carla, I agree so much with you.  I don't believe there is one way to do anything.  You and your dog or dogs are a team.  Your team has different personalities and needs than other teams.  Your dogs learn in different ways than other dogs may learn--the same is true for children.  Each dog in a family learns in different ways--atleast that is what I have experienced in my family of dogs.  I think it is good to read and get ideas.  Some may work for you and all of your dogs and some may work for one of your dogs.  You read it, judge it, and learn by it.  You may decide to give it a try and it works, you may give it a try and it doesn't work for your team, or you may decide not to try.  I'm not saying there is not certain parameters you must stay within, such as not abusing an animal, having your dogs fearful of you, etc. 

I work in an OR and often doctors do things a little differently and nurses do things a little differently, but the patients get taken care of and their procedure has a satisfactory outcome. Each individual has a way that works for them.  That is how I look at caring for and training my dogs.  Each individual in the team has their way of performing and reacting.

 Just by reading many of your posts, it is apparent that you do your best for your dogs.  I know with my dogs, I try to give them the best life that I can.  I try to give them good food, exercise, fun, and I try to teach them that there are certain things they can and cannot do (I don't want people to look down on dogs, because mine misbehave).  It also makes it much easier to live with them-lol.  I love dogs and want the best for them as a group.   

So, in my opinion, do what you know is best for them! Thanks for the input--it also opened my eyes.

Spritdogs,

I just don't know why you feel spoken to......I have seen several pics of you and two of your dogs, I believe......don't sweat it......there is a pic and dogs behind your screen name......

snownose

I also realized when I wrote "Hands off", it sounds like that I have my hands on my dogs for correction all the time......error folks, not so.... I use bodyblocks, point fingers or use a voice correction....that's it......for in the world, I do not understand why I should fiddle with a clicker/treat and redirection for an unwanted behavior if I can just use my voice to stop unwanted behavior.....

I'm sure you know I am a huge advocate of clicker training, but I only use it to teach new behaviours because that's what works for me.  Oh, I also use it regularly at my agility class, but it the club is specifically a clicker training agility club, so...

When teaching new behaviours I am prepared, I have planned for it, I have a quiet (or distracting, depending on the level of training) situation that I have intentionally set up.  I do NOT wander around with a clicker in my hand constantly, it's totally impractical for me and, I am sure, the majority of people who use this tool.  I also don't use it to redirect unwanted behaviour, since that usually happens so fast I'd still be fiddling with my clicker and making sure I have a treat in my hand by the time Ben has completed the unwanted behaviour, self-rewarded and moved on.  I too use my voice, or when necessary, the "denial" tactics I outlined above. 

Benedict

 the best kind of training/leadership/discipline/ownership is found in that overlapping space between what is most suitable to the individual dog in question and what is comfortable for the owner.

This has got to be one of the best statements on dog ownership, ever.  

Dog_ma

Benedict

 the best kind of training/leadership/discipline/ownership is found in that overlapping space between what is most suitable to the individual dog in question and what is comfortable for the owner.

 

This has got to be one of the best statements on dog ownership, ever.  

Thank you.  It is the basis of my philosophy of dog ownership and of my life with Ben.  When I figured that out, everything surrounding owning a dog became uncomplicated for me, which allows me to just enjoy it. 

I too was dragged into the:

Oh no, I've been doing this wrong my whole life, my poor dogs! They are ruined, ruined I tell you!

Am I feeding my dog the worst food in the world?

And you know what, I took a step back, stopped and re-evaluated everything I had known, had recently learned and what had worked in the past. I stopped being other people.

Here goes: I feed my dog Purina pro plan, and supplement with home cooked. Results, his allergies are gone. I tried all the high end foods, they did not work for him. Do I care that people will be upset with me? No, because in the end this is my dog, not anyone else's and I owe my loyalty to him and to him alone.

Vet reactive: Since my dog had a bad visit to the vet I have battled this, I do not anymore, he has to go from time to time and I will make the visits as pleasant as possible, but in the end I do expect obedience. I have had a sit down, yes an actual sit down visit with 2 vets and they are willing to work with him and I, they will take none of his bull hockey, they know his limits and mine, they both have treated him since the day I brought him home, they know my dog. Results: Last visit, muzzled, posturing and some growling, but he sat when told, weighed in when asked, laid down when requested. For the first time since that bad visit they were able to keep the door to the hallway open, and he had no issue with the people walking back and forth down the hall, HUGE step forward, no lunging, another huge step. As long as he listens to me when there, he can grumble all he wants. Overall, I stopped being nice about what I expected, no physical or verbal punishment, just a take no bull stance. I have accepted that vets are a necessary evil to him, the vet was actually encouraged by his last visit. She gave him an improved score. But his caution tag at the vet will remain and likely for his whole life.

Overall, since I stopped being someone else, and trying to work their way, my dog now:

Sleeps on various pieces of furniture, often now in close proximity to myself, he is NOT a touchy feely dog. He is content to just be in the same room most of the time, he now actively chooses to be "close". I almost cried when he came up onto the couch one day and put his head on my lap. I went from having a dog that had to touch me constantly to one who does it rarely. I had to learn to let go of those expectations. Once I did, our relationship improved. For those that don't know, my husband is his world, he loves me, but adores the hubby. I am learning to live, work and train with that knowledge. Once I let my relationship with "Babe" go out the window, we saw dramatic improvements. I made some mistakes, but they are all mine, no one else's. The biggest thing I learned, stop being envious of other people and their relationship with their dogs, just because it is different or "better" does not mean what I have is bad or wrong, just different.

Over the course of time on this board I have learned many things, there are great idea's and I have used alot of them, for that I am grateful. But I also learned that you need to stay true to yourself and your dog, and tune out the "impact" of other's advice and beliefs. Take the advice, take the beliefs, but in the end apply only what works for you and throw the rest out.

Benedict

I do NOT wander around with a clicker in my hand constantly, it's totally impractical for me and, I am sure, the majority of people who use this tool.  I also don't use it to redirect unwanted behaviour, since that usually happens so fast I'd still be fiddling with my clicker and making sure I have a treat in my hand by the time Ben has completed the unwanted behaviour

Even though I don't carry the clicker at all times, I have kept it on me at times, to take advantage of such a situation. Example, sitting at the computer or whatever and Shadow takes off after the cat. At the first flinch of a launch, I call off and he does so and I immediately click and treat. Another time, I wait until mid-chase and repeat the process. Other times, without clicker in hand, I call off, and say good boy, another conditioned reinforcer and then gave a treat, even if I had to get up and get one. At any point in time, listening to me was the good thing. Of course, I may be blessed, having fast reaction times. And to be totally fair, one valuable thing I did learn from that famous guy with the tv show, was how to read quickly. To spot the behavior in an instant. I just differ on what I do with that info. Plus, reading other books on dog behavior interpretation. I'm not perfect, I just have a quick eye.