Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

Truley

Once I let my relationship with "Babe" go out the window, we saw dramatic improvements. I made some mistakes, but they are all mine, no one else's. The biggest thing I learned, stop being envious of other people and their relationship with their dogs, just because it is different or "better" does not mean what I have is bad or wrong, just different

I can imagine that was the hardest thing to do. In a sense, the dog, as much as we do, helps to define the relationship and it takes a lot of courage and some humility to accept that, as you did.

I too have vet problems that I have worked with. I've gotten him to walk into the examining room instead of being dragged. We still had to muzzle to get a vacc update. And that wasn't pretty. If I have to soft muzzle or basket muzzle him, so be it, though I will work at re-conditioning the response. This last time (in August) the vet used his old cloth strip like a logger's hitch. Slip-knot behind the ears, a half-hitch under the muzzle and holding tension on the rest. The harder the dog pulls, the tighter the half-hitch, ala a Gentle Leader. It was a step back from the previous year, when I just held onto his harness and held his head to my chest with my other hand. But the next week on a social visit, I walked him into the examining room, thanks to the magical power of my smoked brisket. So, it's still a work in progress.

And I can accept, to a degree, that limitation, though I will still work for a muzzle-free visit, if possible. It's the way I was raised. Aim high, every day, in every way. Nor am I the only + motivation person who has used a muzzle. I just know that there's a difference between take no crap and actual punishment.

Good post Four and very well said.

  I think that in some ways this same problem has occurred with me, especially in regards to corrections. Gunnar has never needed much in the way of corrections and a somewhat stern NO is about the most correction he has ever experienced, but Hektor is a different story, and my uncertainty regarding whether I was right or whether perhaps I was lost in the darkness of the old school have led to some issues with him. I have corrected that. I use as much positive reinforcement as possible with Hektor but the truth of the matter is he does require correction, sometimes a good leash pop or a hard body block or a good stiff poke to divert him from doing something wrong. I am comfortable with that now and the only thing I wish were true is that people could see that each dog is different and what works for one need not be true for another.

 I truly believe that if I followed some of the positive only advice given here that Hektor would end up PTS at some point in his life. I am not going to allow that to happen and intend on him living a good long life with us, with the boundaries and limitations set in place for his own good and protection.

  If I used the exact strategy with Gunnar that I use with Hektor his spirit would be crushed, but at the same time if I use the exact strategy with Hektor that I use with Gunnar he would rule the house and would even have the potential to harm someone or something.

Many will think me cruel, because I have determined that a more old school approach is required for Hektor and they will refuse to believe that this is what is best for him. Many will jump to the conclusion that because I said “old school” that I am hanging him by his neck until he is unconscious and that I am choking him into submission, but this is untrue and I have learned that with those few it is pointless to debate the issue.

 I am thankful to a few people here on the forum that assisted me in evaluating Hektor and to a wonderful police dog trainer who has also assisted me in evaluating Hektor and in understanding what he needs to be successful. I am also very thankful to many of you who have offered advice and not judgment, even though not all of you agree with my methods.

Personally I think that it is really only a few that condemn outright other people’s methods. The vast majority may disagree and may debate but are not outright condemning unless of course you are choking your dog until he is unconscious.

 Anyway good post and I am glad that you are working closely with your dogs and judging the results of your methods instead of other people’s interpretation of those methods.

Truley

For those that don't know, my husband is his world, he loves me, but adores the hubby.

I needed to comment on this statement.  Out of all my friends and family’s who have dogs almost all the woman says the same thing.  My dog loves my husband and listens to my husband better to me.  What I have observed is that it’s the husbands who have no idea how to train in the structured sense that we all discuss here.  It’s the woman who read and tries to be structured.  But for some reason the dogs cling and respond happily to the husband who looks over and say “get you ass off the couch”!  It has something to do with the no nonsense way a man treats those dogs IMO.  And these DHs do not abuse psychically these dogs they are firm in there approach.  An example would be my girlfriend if her dogs leave the yard, she can call him to she is blue in the face.  She calls her DH to get the dog!  He goes to the door, whistles and dog comes running back.  I can guarantee you that this dog was never taught to come by the DH, he just does.  As soon as the dog comes into the yard the DH goes back to what he was doing with as little as a shoot out, good boy and then doesn’t pay him any mind.  There is a difference, there are also those husband who will boot the dog and tell it go lay down.  That dog will respond to the DH too, out of fear.  So we have to understand the fine line and lean towards the positive side.

Back on topic, I have learned a lot from these forums.  Most of which is that people who would have normally just had a dog and done there best are now trying to instill training that they don’t understand.  I think that is what gets the hackles up with some of the positive minded here.  I am the research queen, all my friends ask my to research things for them from illness, conditions to mattress buying.  So when I determined that my dog needed a structured training program I started researching reading lots of book and joined this forum.  I maybe didn’t’ use all positive, since I was trying to stop some bad behaviors and couldn’t get the knack of doing that positively.  I did resort to leash corrections but I was gentle in my approach – which many will say doesn’t matter and I disagree.  It the people who take things to the extreme – weather it be walking in a structured manor or jerking their dogs so hard that it hurts them.  Most of the time it is newbie’s who are giving this advise on this forum, to be the leader, to be the Alpha but the information for them to this benevolently is not provided so they resort to taking that at face value and risk really damaging their dogs.  All though many will disagree I don’t have a shutdown dog, I have not damaged my dog through this training and I don’t use it anymore either – that part of my training is done and behind us.  Training new behaviors or parlor tricks is all I do now, for fun and use positive means.  However, when we give a new person with a problem the idea that they are not the leader, that they are not taking control that they need to be the Alpha we are sending the wrong message to these people who don’t truly understand.  I get value from CM althought I agree that the problem with CM’s show; is you take the chance of people taking it to the extreme.  I have to provide X amount of exercise – so I will take them a 4 mile hike everyday.  I have to show X amount of discipline so I will provide leash corrections (without understanding how) and them some affection.  This is why I don’t interfere when other like Spiritdogs is trying to tell the newbie this is wrong, try this instead because she understands that they don’t understand – that’s why they are asking.

I have learned over time that this forum brings a wealth of knowledge and it also brings a lot of confusion too many.  The positive minded are not going to agree that you can use corrective methods without harming your dog and the people who use this method successfully and find value in them, can’t understand why they feel that way.  So what ever side of the fence you sit I think it is most important that we try and remember who we are agruing with.  So do the positive minded really think Carla is CM and that her dogs are poorly misguided, shut down, harsly treated and abused dogs?  Is Spiritdogs really just a treat dispenser?  I hope we know neither is true, or a least I do.  But how about JQP who just joined this forum, are they shutting down there dogs, abusing them becasue we have given them a direction to follow with just throwing out statements?  At least when the positive minded throw out ideas it probably isn't going to be abuse and hurt the dog - I find if I am address a JQP I always give positive montra and if I give anythign other I try to explain and discribe how to apply in the most thoughful and kind manner so not to give the JQP the licence to abuse.

snownose

Spritdogs,

I just don't know why you feel spoken to......I have seen several pics of you and two of your dogs, I believe......don't sweat it......there is a pic and dogs behind your screen name......

Gee, I don't know why I would have thought that either - can't imagine.  

Anyway, my business is giving advice to dog owners.  Some of you may not like the advice I give - fine, train your dogs any way you want.  You are the ones who have to live with them.  In the final analysis, that's the bottom line.  But, if you come here asking for advice because you have a problem you haven't been able to solve, you have to expect that other people may see some errors in what you do, or may have other suggestions.  Grow a thick skin - it helps you learn!   Just because I think Pro Plan sucks next to Innova doesn't mean that your dogs aren't doing ok on it.  But, you might learn something if you consider why someone might feel that one food is inferior to another, or a technique, instead of just putting up a wall and defending whatever it is you already do.  They don't mean it personally, they are trying to help. Personally, I don't feel that guilty about the mistakes I've made either.  But, that's because I have always continued to learn, to the best of my ability, and when I know better, I do better.  I don't defend positions that I have found lacking just to save face and get on someone else's bandwagon.  If I think Jean Donaldson is wrong on something, I say so.  If I think Cesar is right, I say so.  But, I do not give blanket approval or disapproval to anyone.  I am willing, however, to make judgments on the preponderance of a person's work.  So, I don't agree with Dunbar when he throws all the puppies in the same play yard (I do think it's wise to separate out the shy ones at first and let less belligerent puppies play together, before putting them in with more exuberant ones).  But, I do think he done dogs a big, huge favor in general.  I don't agree with Cesar's flooding techniques, which I think he does indiscriminately and incorrectly, or his emphasis on dominance, but I do agree that most dogs don't get enough exercise and that you should not reward a dog that is misbehaving with attention.   It is the individual assessment of each of those circumstances that gets lost in the hoo-ha about who you like better.  Debate about methods is good - it gets people thinking.  But, we really need thoughtful debate.  Otherwise, we are just CM vs Dunbar, Republicans vs Democrats, pro-life vs pro-choice.  You never change anyone's mind if they are determined not to change.  So, instead of baiting, self-aggrandsizing, shaming, guilt-inducing posts, why not just make a reasoned argument for your position?  "It works for my dogs'" is fine, but not a scientific, or even trial and error argument for why people might want to try the same thing with their own dogs.  Tell us why.  Give examples of other things you tried that didn't work.  Sometimes, you might get a response that helps you see why what you did before didn't work. (Been there, done that. Thank you, KF (no, not a member here).)

I really must address the idea that some of you seem to have developed about "leadership".  You most certainly can use hands off training and still exhibit leadership to your dog.  To equate correction with leadership is simply erroneous, as is asserting that people who use hands off training end up with neurotic dogs.  I use hands off training and my dogs are hardly neurotic - in fact, I don't know any dogs who can pass the therapy dog test for any of the big three organizations to be neurotic, and quite a few of them, at least in my area, are trained pretty much completely with hands off training.  To the contrary, people who cannot communicate with their dogs in a meaningful way (to the dog) often cause anxiety and confusion in the animal that is often exhibited as "neurotic".  To call my dogs, or others' dogs "neurotic" is not only incorrect, since you don't know them, but it is a personal attack IMO against anyone who fits that category of hands off trainers.  It's like me saying your dogs are all learned helpless because you punished them.  Sure, there are dogs that are trained by both methods that are neurotic, and some are exhibit learned helplessness.  But the poster, while it was not specifically stated,  seemed to suggest that only dogs trained with hands off methods were neurotic, which, again, is most certainly false.

No one, least of all I, wants anyone to feel guilty.  What I want is for you to keep learning, questioning, and problem solving in a humane way.  All the holier than thou threads in the world will not help to build the communication you have with your dog, and they will not sway people for or against your "enemies" on some message board.  If your ideas are sound, they will prevail.  If not, they will not.  I really think that if we just adopt a friendlier "agree to disagree" attitude, and post what we know, others can assess our arguments without having to wade through the baiting and sniping.

This reminds me of parenting - breast versus bottle, cry it out or baby wearing, day care, family bed, etc.

I just want to say I bow before you all.  I feel hesitant to ask anything because I know that there's so much I don't know.  My doggies have issues and half and I do also.  Thank you to those of you who don't come down too hard.

luvmyswissy

Truley

For those that don't know, my husband is his world, he loves me, but adores the hubby.

 

I needed to comment on this statement.  Out of all my friends and family’s who have dogs almost all the woman says the same thing.  My dog loves my husband and listens to my husband better to me.  What I have observed is that it’s the husbands who have no idea how to train in the structured sense that we all discuss here.  It’s the woman who read and tries to be structured.  But for some reason the dogs cling and respond happily to the husband who looks over and say “get you ass off the couch”!  It has something to do with the no nonsense way a man treats those dogs IMO.  And these DHs do not abuse psychically these dogs they are firm in there approach.  An example would be my girlfriend if her dogs leave the yard, she can call him to she is blue in the face.  She calls her DH to get the dog!  He goes to the door, whistles and dog comes running back.  I can guarantee you that this dog was never taught to come by the DH, he just does.  As soon as the dog comes into the yard the DH goes back to what he was doing with as little as a shoot out, good boy and then doesn’t pay him any mind.  There is a difference, there are also those husband who will boot the dog and tell it go lay down.  That dog will respond to the DH too, out of fear.  So we have to understand the fine line and lean towards the positive side.

 

Back on topic, I have learned a lot from these forums.  Most of which is that people who would have normally just had a dog and done there best are now trying to instill training that they don’t understand.  I think that is what gets the hackles up with some of the positive minded here.  I am the research queen, all my friends ask my to research things for them from illness, conditions to mattress buying.  So when I determined that my dog needed a structured training program I started researching reading lots of book and joined this forum.  I maybe didn’t’ use all positive, since I was trying to stop some bad behaviors and couldn’t get the knack of doing that positively.  I did resort to leash corrections but I was gentle in my approach – which many will say doesn’t matter and I disagree.  It the people who take things to the extreme – weather it be walking in a structured manor or jerking their dogs so hard that it hurts them.  Most of the time it is newbie’s who are giving this advise on this forum, to be the leader, to be the Alpha but the information for them to this benevolently is not provided so they resort to taking that at face value and risk really damaging their dogs.  All though many will disagree I don’t have a shutdown dog, I have not damaged my dog through this training and I don’t use it anymore either – that part of my training is done and behind us.  Training new behaviors or parlor tricks is all I do now, for fun and use positive means.  However, when we give a new person with a problem the idea that they are not the leader, that they are not taking control that they need to be the Alpha we are sending the wrong message to these people who don’t truly understand.  That’s the problem with CM’s show; you take the chance of people taking it to the extreme.  I have to provide X amount of exercise – so I will take them a 4 mile hike everyday.  I have to show X amount of discipline so I will provide leash corrections (without understanding how) and them some affection.  This is why I don’t interfere when other like Spiritdogs is trying to tell the newbie this is wrong, try this instead because she understands that they don’t understand – that’s why they are asking.

 

I have learned over time that this forum brings a wealth of knowledge and it also brings a lot of confusion too many.  The positive minded are not going to agree that you can use corrective methods without harming your dog and the people who use this method successfully can’t understand why they feel that way.  So what ever sides of the fence you are on I think we all agree that we are kind, and are trying to do what works for us and our dogs.  I also think we can agree that there are many who absolutely abuse the same techniques that we find valuable and useful.

 

BTW, this is my idea of a reasoned and thoughtful post.  Thank you so much for saying this so much better than abrupt ole me.  

Edited to add - I think that husbands do well with dogs because they "live in the moment" too.  Otherwise, they would remember to go back and flush.

spiritdogs

I really must address the idea that some of you seem to have developed about "leadership".  You most certainly can use hands off training and still exhibit leadership to your dog. 

I agree, I've seen that sort of comment before and find it offensive. Hands off does not equal lack of leadership. SOME people who use hands off techniques MAY not be exhibiting proper leadership, and some people who use hands off techniques MAY have neurotic 'issues' dogs, but hands off training and leadership is not an oxymoron, one does not preclude the other.

That's all, carry on.
 

I have seen some horrible cases of positive/hands off training approaches gone wrong on this board.......posters claiming they are sitting on a stack of books and tried all the positive methods and nothing has worked.....dogs are neurotic and aggressive .....dogs fighting with each other and even some in home human aggression.......or the dog wants to kill the family cat.......

Granted, my method isn't a textbook +R approach.....but, like I said, it has worked for me and all dogs and all cats are alive without having to fear for their lives....I have presented my situation and even post pics of dogs and cats .....and still....I need to try something different? Why, really why should I mess around with that? Because, a +R trainer toots that horn?

To the OP: Thank you for not only realizing this but being willing to "put it out there"!  In too many forums, I have found that there are people who feel it's their mission to set themselves up as experts and obnoxiously tell others how they're "breaking the rules" or "doing it wrong" or "doomed to failure" and what have you.  When you're looking for help or advice or are new and uncertain about what you're doing, it can be very daunting and defeating to get so much contradictory advice or warnings that you're bound to ruin your dog.  The Internet is a great place to gain information but it's also a great place for kooks and really bad information as well.  I think it's important in whatever you're doing, be it dogs, fitness, diet, etc, to have real life resources such as vets, physicians, friends, etc. to help you through and not just go with what some unknown, possibly unqualified, possibly mentally ill person says on the Internet.  And going with your gut and using your own instincts is one of the best ways to at least sleep well at night and not make yourself crazy trying to follow all the many different "expert" opinions you find on the Internet.

I'm glad your dogs have their Mom back!  :)

spiritdogs

So, instead of baiting, self-aggrandsizing, shaming, guilt-inducing posts, why not just make a reasoned argument for your position?  "It works for my dogs'" is fine, but not a scientific, or even trial and error argument for why people might want to try the same thing with their own dogs.  Tell us why. 

I'm not interested in convincing people that they should try "my way". I think they should find their own way. I will share what I have done or what I think I would do or what I think the problem is, but I'm not going to try to convince anyone that my way is right or better for everyone. I don't care to "sell" my methods.

spiritdogs

I really must address the idea that some of you seem to have developed about "leadership".  You most certainly can use hands off training and still exhibit leadership to your dog. 

Oh, I agree! It's very possible. And if that's what you want to do, do it! I WANT to put my hands on my dogs and I will.  

spiritdogs

To equate correction with leadership ...

I have never seen anyone equate correction with leadership.

snownose

I have seen some horrible cases of positive/hands off training approaches gone wrong on this board.......posters claiming they are sitting on a stack of books and tried all the positive methods and nothing has worked.....dogs are neurotic and aggressive .....dogs fighting with each other and even some in home human aggression.......or the dog wants to kill the family cat.......

Granted, my method isn't a textbook +R approach.....but, like I said, it has worked for me and all dogs and all cats are alive without having to fear for their lives....I have presented my situation and even post pics of dogs and cats .....and still....I need to try something different? Why, really why should I mess around with that? Because, a +R trainer toots that horn?

I don't disagree that people make errors using positive reinforcement.  But, I do think that they are doing themselves a disservice if they only get information from books.  As you know, some people learn better by seeing someone else perform the technique first.  So,  I always take the claim that "I tried and it didn't work." with a grain of salt, especially if I don't know the dog & handler.  Also, we need to draw a distinction between behavior modification and training.  Behavior modification, classical or operant conditioning, is often harder for newbies to grasp and accomplish.  It's much easier to teach a finite behavior like "sit", than to understand and implement changing the dog's opinion of men in baseball hats.

You shouldn't try anything different if you don't want to.  Again, you are the one living with your dogs and if you are satisfied, fine.  But, that doesn't mean that your methods are for everyone, nor does it mean that mine don't work as well.   Some  people have tried your methods, too, and it hasn't worked for them.  So, I hope you wouldn't dissuade them from listening to those of us who are well versed in +R and understand how to apply those principles.  I mean, you certainly wouldn't want them to take advice from the people who didn't apply it correctly or ended up with neurotic dogs, right? 

"Don't fix it if it ain't broke"....yeah I agree. 

I was just thinking of starting a thread about all the things I do "wrong" according to other people and even my own trainers.  For example, my dogs have free access to their toys.  I let them play with toys whenever they want.  I even let them play tug with each other *gasp*.  My dogs sleep on my bed, lay on my couch, and basically go wherever they please.  They don't always sit and wait perfectly still as I put their leashes on and open the door.  I let them chase squirrels and rabbits, heck, I even encourage it!  I don't make them do a little dance before I set down the food bowl.  I feed them before training classes.

No, my dogs don't run me or my house.  Kenya is a show champion, agility trained, certified therapy dog, CGC, and hopefully two legs towards RN title tomorrow.  Neither of my dogs are aggressive towards people or dogs, neither of them guard food, toys, or furniture, neither of them chew and destroy things besides what I give them for that purpose.  I can walk both of them together right at heel for three miles without any pulling or harsh leash corrections.  Granted, Kenya's obedience is far more advance than Coke, but Coke graduated from beginners today and is already in an intermediate/CGC class.  They are nice to each other, listen to what I say, and do what I ask when I ask it.

spiritdogs

You shouldn't try anything different if you don't want to.  Again, you are the one living with your dogs and if you are satisfied, fine.  But, that doesn't mean that your methods are for everyone, nor does it mean that mine don't work as well.   Some  people have tried your methods, too, and it hasn't worked for them.  So, I hope you wouldn't dissuade them from listening to those of us who are well versed in +R and understand how to apply those principles.  I mean, you certainly wouldn't want them to take advice from the people who didn't apply it correctly or ended up with neurotic dogs, right?

I have never claimed my method works for all......because,of one very important thing that I have realized, some people are not cut out to use other than +R ....they feel bad for verbally correcting a dog, and don't want to "Hurt their feelings".......and the dog will quickly pick up on that.....

I certainly want folks to access all learning options if they have a problem, but on the other hand, I don't want to be told over and over that I need to see the light and switch up on my training......btw. do you really know how I handle and train my dogs? It seems you have some twisted version of that in your mind.....I would be interested in hearing what you have gathered so far when it comes to my method.....

BCMixs

Thank you for not only realizing this but being willing to "put it out there"! 

It wasn't an easy decision to make. I like to come across as being so sure of myself, ya know? LOL To admit that I was feeling unsure wasn't easy. Thanks to people like you and westiegirl (newer members) for posting here. Because the reason I decided to go ahead and write this thread is because I suspected that if I (a pretty self-assured, strong-willed and confident, longer-term member) was having feelings of doubt and insecurity about posting dog issues for fear of being ridiculed, I felt sure there were others who were feeling the same way.

BCMixs

I'm glad your dogs have their Mom back!  :)

We're all pretty happy about that, let me tell ya!  

Liesje

I was just thinking of starting a thread about all the things I do "wrong" according to other people and even my own trainers.  For example, my dogs have free access to their toys.  I let them play with toys whenever they want.  I even let them play tug with each other *gasp*.

Yep, all toys are laying around outside or in the house.....of course have to be picked up for cleaning purposes....