Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

snownose

Liesje

I was just thinking of starting a thread about all the things I do "wrong" according to other people and even my own trainers.  For example, my dogs have free access to their toys.  I let them play with toys whenever they want.  I even let them play tug with each other *gasp*.

 

Yep, all toys are laying around outside or in the house.....of course have to be picked up for cleaning purposes....

I've got dog toys and kid toys laying about, all the time, no matter how I try and pick up.   The kid and the older dog know who gets to play with what. The younger one thinks everything is a toy. But then, he also thinks rocks are for eating. LOL.

spiritdogs

snownose

Spritdogs,

I just don't know why you feel spoken to

Gee, I don't know why I would have thought that either - can't imagine.  

Oh Anne, do you remember what you told me before?

spiritdogs

Get a grip!  You are not the center of the Universe - I was not quoting you.

Lets just all be friends  

spiritdogs

Also, we need to draw a distinction between behavior modification and training.  Behavior modification, classical or operant conditioning, is often harder for newbies to grasp and accomplish. 

In my opinion, we need to do no such thing. I raised 2 wonderfully brilliant and stable dogs without ever drawing such a distinction and without ever knowing the terms operant and classical conditioning. "Newbies" (an extremely disrespectful word, in my opinion) don't NEED this information. This is exactly what this thread is about. This attitude that some of us know better and others are just "newbies". Yuck!

There's nothing wrong with learning about learning theory. I am enjoying it. But to assume that people need this to raise wonderfully healthy, happy dogs is just not in the slightest true.

snownose

Yep, all toys are laying around outside or in the house.....of course have to be picked up for cleaning purposes....

Yeah I pick them up 2-3 times a day and of course they want to play with them ALL!  I got a basket for them so I'm going to train them to put the toys away. 

I have learned to at LEAST pick up the cuzs at night! Argh! What a terrible sound to be awakened to! LOL  

Liesje

I got a basket for them so I'm going to train them to put the toys away. 

snownose

Liesje

I was just thinking of starting a thread about all the things I do "wrong" according to other people and even my own trainers.  For example, my dogs have free access to their toys.  I let them play with toys whenever they want.  I even let them play tug with each other *gasp*.

 

Yep, all toys are laying around outside or in the house.....of course have to be picked up for cleaning purposes....

My house too - heck that's how I survived puppyhood! When those nasty sharp little puppy teeth latched onto my clothing I had to have a toy within reach to redirect them to. I pick them up and put them back in the box once a week to vacuum. I think it's so cute to watch them stick their heads into the toy box and root around to pick out exactly what they want to play with. They always look so delighted!

Have fun kids, I'm off to the beach with my badly behaved, neurotic, lack of leadership dogs for some fun in the ocean!

Regarding toys here is a weird but true story.  We keep all of the dogs toys on a rocking chair in the corner of my LR, nowone every uses it so out of default and keep the floor picked up I always tossed them there.  River knows they're there and will help himself to a toy - Brooke my Cahahoula has never helped herself - she will only engage in a toy if I put it down or it is already down.  I dont' know why but she isn't much interested on her own.  Funny thing, Brooke never bothers Riv when he has a toy - unless there are playing together then they may bantor back and forth with one.  But the minute Riv walks away from a toy - Brooke will retrieve it, bring it to the chair and drop it on the floor right in front of it.  She dosen't actually put it back in the chair but will drop in on the floor in front of the chair.  We crack up over it, I assume it is her way of taking the toy away from River as if he isn't allowed to play with it or just that his play time is over.  Or.. maybe she is just a neat freak!  She will put it away but never take it.

Cassidys Mom

I agree, I've seen that sort of comment before and find it offensive. Hands off does not equal lack of leadership. SOME people who use hands off techniques MAY not be exhibiting proper leadership, and some people who use hands off techniques MAY have neurotic 'issues' dogs, but hands off training and leadership is not an oxymoron, one does not preclude the other.

 I agree with this. Leadership is a state of mind and/or an attitude. It does not require hands on nor does it require hand off. It can be exhibited using entirely hands off or hands on, people can be hands off and be poor leaders and they can be hands on and be poor leaders. Hands off people have dogs with issues, hands on people have dogs with issues and hands are not the reason for the issues although they can be if one is using very harsh hands on or very permissive hands off.

 I have one hands off dog and one hands on dog. It is the dog that detemines the method.

I was Babe's world, my DH is Kord's. It is just that simple. The not so simple part was recognizing this for me. GSD's are noted for being one person dogs, I had a 50/50 chance at being his world and he chose my husband. Did I have issue's with this? Yes. Have I corrected this? Yes, but only when I stopped trying to be his world and went back to doing with him, the same things I did with Babe, with the knowledge that I was going to have work harder at the relationship from my end, did it actually start to improve.

Kord, out of sheer radiant love will do anything my husband wants, I had to prove to Kord that I was just as deserving of the same compliance, but on a different level.

Once I stopped trying to incorporate so many knew things into what I had done in the past, and went back to basic's did it click. I was trying to be something I was not. He was not going to do things for me just because I asked, I was going to have be a bit tougher and try some of the new things only when they old way did not work and at the same time let go of the feeling that I had developed that made me think I was doing something wrong because I did not have his undying devotion.

Babe was not a hands on girl, she did most of what I asked because she wanted to please me and be with me, she was happy because I was happy. Kord is a hand's on boy for me. The best thing I did learn from this board, was NILIF, it is the core of our training and will remain, but I do some things that I know other's would disapprove of, or think me cruel for doing. Case in point would be I do work with a prong collar on heeling and general leash work. I do not use it as a weapon, but I do use it, to some that makes me a monster. I am not a monster, and I no longer care if other's think I am for doing so, you are not me, and this is not your dog.

Through this board I have been taught or learned many things, some I have taken to heart, other's I have not. I have tried some with success, other not so great.

The one thing that saddens me the most is that I too fell into the trap of being swayed by other's opinion and letting it effect what I was. I see so much strife on this board, even in this thread from people that profess to have fantastic relationships with their dogs and yet have no idea how to nurture the human side of the spectrum. I have seen people rally to the aide of others and then totally turn on you when you do something they deem "wrong". If I act like that in the future, someone please tell me to get over myself.

I agree with Liesje and FourIsCompany.  I don't think my dogs are broke.  They may not have been trained in exactly the same way that some think they should have been trained.  I have not just haphazardly trained them.  I have gone to obedience classes.  I have read and researched.  My dogs are like my children were.  They are allowed on my furniture, they are allowed to play with their toys whenever they want, they know when it is o.k. to just run outside (sometimes they have to sit so I can check to see if the huskies upstairs are out), I am able to walk all four dogs without problem at one time, and they are not aggressive toward others.  They play well with each other.  Oh yes, they are allowed to chase the squirrels outside, but they also know that they are not allowed to be aggressive towards the inside cat (in fact she probably aggravates them far more than they do her).  My dogs are happy and I would say obedient.  Because they are happy, I am happy with the way they are.  They are my pets, companions, and friends--I do not want them different than they are.

That all being said, I enjoy learning new methods, that is why I am here; I know there is alot that I can learn.  But I feel as if I should take what will benefit my dogs and me.  There is no absolute one way to train your dog.  That is just my belief.

Carla, I am glad your dogs got their mom back.

I also enjoy watching my girls with their head in the toy basket looking for that one special toy they want to play with.  Also, I must find a way to train them to put the toys up, because it seems as if they are always all over the house--lol.

Truley

If I act like that in the future, someone please tell me to get over myself.

Count on it.   And I trust (and hope) you'd do the same for me. Nice post.

never mind

I must say that I have books, too. One specifically covering all the mechanics of clicker training. As well as the list of websites here that I have saved in "favorites." As well as the wealth of experience from people such as you. And I have still made mistakes. Granted, my mistakes in clicker training only resulted in me being confused, rather than being bitten or having an increase in aggression or fear. But rather than pronounce the system wrong (whether anyone thinks it is or not) I entertained the possibility that I did something wrong, which was usually the case. I'm not saying that everyone has to use it. I just have tenacity. I used to describe it as being too stupid to quit something.

BTW, I'm not saying that correction methods will automatically result in bites or more fear, but there is certainly that risk, imo.

Wow FourIsCompany,

I just saw this topic and your opening post.

The only two words I have to offer right now are - OUTSTANDING & CONGRATULATIONS