Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

Hmmmmm.  I wonder who snownose was referring to?  I bet I could guess pretty easily......

FWIW, "calling me out", demanding that I prove that I have dogs is going to get no one anywhere.  I tend to get annoyed and just dig in my heels when challenged in such a manner.  If anyone is that interested, they can go search the archives.

glenmar

Hmmmmm.  I wonder who snownose was referring to?  I bet I could guess pretty easily......

FWIW, "calling me out", demanding that I prove that I have dogs is going to get no one anywhere.  I tend to get annoyed and just dig in my heels when challenged in such a manner.  If anyone is that interested, they can go search the archives.

I'll pm the answer to you.......

I hereby apologise to anyone who has ever taken any of my posts to heart and felt bad for it. My aim is certainly not to accuse other members of not treating their dogs right or not training right or not feeding right. I'm not very experienced and I've made mistakes with my dog that I feel awful for. Sometimes I've felt like banging my head on a wall and saying "I'm so stupid! How did I not see what was happening!".

It's because I feel so awful about some of the things I've done with Penny that I get so impassioned about the things I believe in. I really don't want anyone to come to same horrible realisations I came to, and I only came to those realisations myself by accident, really. It's altogether possible that Penny would have died and I never would have known I'd done anything wrong with her because nothing had ever made me think to look and make the connection. So I try to make people look, and look hard, because I have been so terribly grateful to all those that made me look hard and question what I was doing. If you're feeling unsettled about what I've suggested and reassess what you're doing, I feel like I've achieved everything I set out to achieve. It's not meant to be personal, though, and I try not to discuss other people's dogs because I don't know them and I can't see for myself what's happening. All I can do is express my opinions and explain why I feel the way I do. It's never personal and it's never an attack on someone else or the way they train or their dogs. I cheerfully ignore or offer counter-arguments to everything I don't agree with and when people make comments about my philosophy or my dog, I let it roll right over me because I know that even if I screw up, I will have learnt for it and with my current methods, I know I can fix anything I screw up if it's not working.

So, sorry to anyone who has taken any of my posts personally. I'm not in the habit of talking about things I know nothing about, such as other people's relationships with their dogs. However, I will continue to caution for all time that sometimes damage is VERY hard to see and I would never have known with Penny if I hadn't tried something else for the hell of it and seen the difference. It's a caution, nothing more.

And Benedict, that was a great post on page 1.
 

corvus, just so you know, you did not enter my mind as I wrote the first post. You are always respectful in sharing your opinions and experience and I've always enjoyed reading your posts. I have learned a lot from them, but never felt pressured to do so.

corvus

I hereby apologise to anyone who has ever taken any of my posts to heart and felt bad for it.

Sharing ones opinion, experience and passion does not require an apology Corvus! Although a thread like tis is a good opportunity for everyone to reflect on how and why we post. Too often I see differing opinion turn from a sharing of ideas to accusations of doing harm. I'm not sure when dogs became soooo fragile that one little miss step may cause them to shut down. I am much more concerned with OWNERS SHUTTING DOWN.  Afraid that the wrong type of walk, a harsh tone, any correction, too much structure, too much direction etc, etc, etc..... will cause psychological damage, shut down you dog, make him unhappy and stifle their creativity.

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

Thirty years ago I owned dogs and raised them with the "leadership" concepts and used the only available training methods at the time (collar corrections and praise). I was happy with the relationship, happy with the dog's behavior. I look back now and am horrified. The methods I use now and the relationship I have with my dogs are immensely better than back then.

experience and passion does not require an apology

Thanks for pointing that out.

Trying to advise people about their dogs is much like advising them about their children.  Everyone thinks they are an expert on their own kids, too, and woe betide the person who doesn't think their little Lord Fauntleroy is a "good boy".  Not saying that there's anyone like that here, but I'm betting that people take advice way too personally, instead of really examining whether it is helpful or not, or if there is something they could be doing better.  I've changed the way I work with reactive dogs based on information that I've garnered from watching some of my colleagues in action.  And, if I think that my dogs or my clients' dogs will benefit from a different tactic, I am willing to adopt it (provided, of course, that it is humane).   That doesn't mean that I was stupid before, or that there was anything terribly wrong with my dogs, or my students' dogs.  But, I like Ron's analogy of what happens when people are "too stupid to quit".  Had I not had an open mind, I would have simply watched my colleagues' videos or lectures and assumed that my methods were still the best, and dismissed theirs, simply because the dogs I worked with were "fine" as they were.  But, what I always strive for is for them to be the happiest and best they can be.  Therefore, I make no automatic assumptions about my own systems being better.  I evaluate others based on science, results, adverse effects, and other factors.  But, the fact that people disagree with me is irrelevant, since they are equally free to decide for themselves what to do.  It also does not mean that I am going to alter my advice so as not to hurt the feelings of those who believe differently, since none of it is given to hurt anyone, but rather to improve the life of dogs.  Up to others whether they listen or not.  This is nothing more than another "nice matters" thread aimed at the +R community for pointing out the obvious difficulties in another philosophy (how many times did we incur the "treat dispensing butler roommate" type barbs - guess what, we thought our dogs were just fine thanks, too).  But, the world is not always fair, you aren't always right, and no one can make you feel guilty without your permission.

corvus

I hereby apologies to anyone who has ever taken any of my posts to heart and felt bad for it. My aim is certainly not to accuse other members of not treating their dogs right or not training right or not feeding right. I'm not very experienced and I've made mistakes with my dog that I feel awful for. Sometimes I've felt like banging my head on a wall and saying "I'm so stupid! How did I not see what was happening!".

No need for this, when I made my post it was a general overview of my time spent on this board. Everyone makes mistakes, some learn, some don't, some need to learn, some don't. There are several people on this board I do respect for their knowledge and willingness to help and be there for people and pets. Just because I voiced that I was unhappy with the way I had done things does not make it anyone else's fault but my own.

denisem

Sharing ones opinion, experience and passion does not require an apology Corvus! Although a thread like tis is a good opportunity for everyone to reflect on how and why we post. Too often I see differing opinion turn from a sharing of ideas to accusations of doing harm. I'm not sure when dogs became soooo fragile that one little miss step may cause them to shut down. I am much more concerned with OWNERS SHUTTING DOWN.  Afraid that the wrong type of walk, a harsh tone, any correction, too much structure, too much direction etc, etc, etc..... will cause psychological damage, shut down you dog, make him unhappy and stifle their creativity.

Thank you and very well said!  This is how I felt recently, no ones fault but my own.

mudpuppy

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

Thirty years ago I owned dogs and raised them with the "leadership" concepts and used the only available training methods at the time (collar corrections and praise). I was happy with the relationship, happy with the dog's behavior. I look back now and am horrified. The methods I use now and the relationship I have with my dogs are immensely better than back then.

I did not see one post where anyone said they were unwilling to learn, for myself I am putting up a higher filtering system so to speak. I have one question, why is what you did 30 years ago ok for that time, but not now, any different than what I am saying?

spiritddogs

This is nothing more than another "nice matters" thread aimed at the +R community for pointing out the obvious difficulties in another philosophy (how many times did we incur the "treat dispensing butler roommate" type barbs - guess what, we thought our dogs were just fine thanks, too).  But, the world is not always fair, you aren't always right, and no one can make you feel guilty without your permission. 

mudpuppy

so you people are all saying you're unwilling to learn, unwilling to even consider the idea that there might be better ways to do things, that perhaps the relationship you have with your dog, while it seems ok, maybe it's not "the best it could be"?

Nope. I haven't seen anyone saying that or anything like that. You made that all up yourself.  

mudpuppy

The methods I use now and the relationship I have with my dogs are immensely better than back then.

That's great! I'm happy you found something that works for you. That's what each of us has to do. It might not be the same way as yours though.

spiritdogs

I'm betting that people take advice way too personally, instead of really examining whether it is helpful or not, or if there is something they could be doing better.

I won't speak for anyone other than myself, but I do not take advice personally. I really examine whether it is helpful or not. And much of your advice has been helpful. I just had to become more discriminating. This is not about being closed-minded and stubbornly turning away any and all advice, it's about being more in touch with what I know to be true, while being open to information to make things even better for me and my dogs.

And it's about not being intimidated to post when members are having problems with their dogs for fear of the assumptions and repercussions that run rampant every time someone posts about a problem.

spiritdogs

I make no automatic assumptions about my own systems being better. 

Wow. That's really hard for me to believe.

spiritdogs

no one can make you feel guilty without your permission.

Agreed 100%! And that's the purpose of this thread. I hereby withdraw my permission. LOL  And I encourage anyone who is giving that permission to take it back.

I am still trying to figure out how certain members view my approach....it almost sounds like they believe that I physically harm my dogs or damage them every day.....are you kidding.....I have manipulated a body movement before, I bodyblock and use voice corrections......I also use toys for motivational training.....and I will scruff a dog to stop some possible dangerous situation.....like fights when a new arrival,such as a rescue has entered the home......but, all of this has been repeated many times......if this constitutes shutting down a dog in some folks' mind, I am sorry, then my opinion will be, certain people are full of it.....

mudpuppy

I look back now and am horrified. The methods I use now and the relationship I have with my dogs are immensely better than back then.

Maybe, you were just utterly too harsh with your dogs.....Koehler style......none of us use that method.....verstehen?

snownose

......none of us use that method.....verstehen

Ich verstehe. Your methods are actually more of a positive bent than you let on. Sorry, but banging pots is an environmental +P and more effective than most hands-on methods, imo.

OTOH, I don't doubt Mudpuppy when she says she used to train harshly, had results that she was pleased, then learned another way and found it to be more effective, and maybe, as a side-effect, more preferrable, at least in her opinion. And if there's one person who is unapologetic, it is Mudpuppy. In all the time I have been here, she has stayed the same. Blunt, to the point, and willing to talk about what she feels she did wrong in the past. There have been times where I don't agree with her on something and then, another time, she will say something that is so simple and revelatory, that I wonder how I was ever able to walk around with my head up my rear.

ron2

OTOH, I don't doubt Mudpuppy when she says she used to train harshly, had results that she was pleased, then learned another way and found it to be more effective,

I think that is the problem, Ladies and Gents.....the fact that certain members used very harsh methods 30 years ago, or however long ago, and now believe that anybody not using a textbook +R approach is that evil dog abuser from 30 years ago.....not so......trust me....

snownose

I think that is the problem, Ladies and Gents.....the fact that certain members used very harsh methods 30 years ago, or however long ago, and now believe that anybody not using a textbook +R approach is that evil dog abuser from 30 years ago.....not so......trust me....

Wow... I wonder. Because real life people think I'm WAY nice to my dogs. And on here, I've got a bit of a reputation of being harsh and having shut-down my dogs and ruined our relationship. It's so far from the truth of the matter, that I think you might have hit on something there. It also has to do with my support and defense of Cesar Millan, I'm sure. There are assumptions that anyone who would say a kind word about him must be a dog abuser. LOL But I can only figure it's all about assumptions.

I've only had dogs for 6 years. I don't know WHAT people were doing 30 years ago, I just know what I do now. And if anyone wants to ask instead of assuming that I hang my dogs, then I'll be glad to share.