Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

houndlove

 Maybe I also offer interesting interactions and my dogs enjoy hanging around too. They just have different definitions of "interesting interactions".

I just don't understand this food obsession that seems to be endemic here. It's food. It's a major life need and most living things are pretty enthusiastic about it. Big freakin' whoop. I think this is where we get in to the core philisophical difference. To me, dogs are animals. They are like every other animal in most ways. No one would be freaking out about my relationship with my cats if I were to say they come a-runnin' when I get the dried fish treats out, everyone would laugh and tell jokes about how their cat can hear a can opener from a mile away. And no one freaks out about the many, many cats who are not "lap cats" and don't really like to be touched all the time by just anyone. People joke all the time about how they're just servants to their cats, who rule the house with an iron paw and yet we don't have any Cat Whisperers running around telling us how weak and feeble-minded we are for "treating our cats like humans" and not giving them exercise and discipline before we give them affection. So why are dogs so incredibly different that the very idea of motivating them to behave in some very un-dog-like ways with something that pretty much anything with a pulse values and enjoys sends people in to absolute paroxysms?

I have to agree here.  Every one of my dogs are food obsessed!   So what?  And you know what, they don't always want interaction from me either if they are focused on something else, especially if its food related.    Every dog is difference for sure, but I bet 97.9% of all dogs are food obsessed.

well, the only interpretation I can come up with about the distaste for using food is that people get personally offended at the idea that GASP it's unthinkable- what if the dog likes food better than ME? GASP. The horror. The personal insult. OF COURSE he always likes it when  I touch him- and they ignore the nasty look, or the narrowed eyes of discomfort, or the quiet "just tolerate it" behavior.  I think, in the OTHER END OF THE LEASH, there are some pics of people "rewarding" a dog for fetching with physical affection and the dog is clearly offended by the touching, go take a look and then watch your dogs and see if maybe they are giving you similar subtle signals. I have some videos of Ed Frawley patting hard-core working dogs on the head as a reward and universally they all gave him a disgusted glance. Some dogs do enjoy physical affection as a reward at any time; are you 100% sure your dog is one of them?  

I know a dog that is truly obsessed with food and it is disturbing to watch him.  His obsession goes way beyond just preferring food over affection as a reward.  I hope none of us here have a dog that is truly obsessed with food. 

DPU

houndlove

To me, dogs are animals. They are like every other animal in most ways.

You may be alone or with only a few with this sentiment.  I can't say we are different in measuring their life values, but such a belief could be interpretted that way.  From doing rescue work, I have learned to love the DOG, no just my residence dogs.  I definitely draw a distinction and feel more for the domestic dog than the wild sparrow.

I do too, DPU, but that's merely because I have spent less time with sparrows and therefore don't understand them as well. (Point: just because we dedicate ourselves to learning about on species and therefore have stronger feelings about them doesn't mean that other species are less worthy of study or of respect/value.) 

 This thread has gone in many directions, so my mind is a bit scattered ...

This food obsession thing is a total strawman. Snownose, you are exaggerating  and misrepresenting what has been said. Therefore, that whole tangent is a bit pointless.

As far as dogs being animals, well yes they are. So are people. There are similarities most animals share, and differences. Animals have culture, too, so that not at animals of species X will be working from the same base.  

I wonder if some of the worry about dogs and food is related to issues that people (in general) have with food? Dogs and humans are very alike when it comes to food! More so than cats. Dogs and people are designed to eat eat eat. We're not evolutionarily prepared for massive abundance. But we humans have all sorts of emotional baggage about self control and discipline and self worth.  

Liesje

I know a dog that is truly obsessed with food and it is disturbing to watch him.  His obsession goes way beyond just preferring food over affection as a reward.  I hope none of us here have a dog that is truly obsessed with food. 

As I said before, foster an emaciated dog and you will see this and understand the extreme obsessive behavior for food. 

And Muddpuppy, you are so correct in your assessment and if I wanted my dog and me to have an EMPLOYER and EMPLOYEE relationship, then I would go the food route.  But I much prefer a strong bond relationship where the dog gets the most joy from just me and not a paycheck.  I guess you can say I dedicate a lot of my time volunteering for the dog because of the joy of the dog's presence and feedback....and no other reason.

mudpuppy

well, the only interpretation I can come up with about the distaste for using food is that people get personally offended at the idea that GASP it's unthinkable- what if the dog likes food better than ME? GASP. The horror. The personal insult. OF COURSE he always likes it when  I touch him- and they ignore the nasty look, or the narrowed eyes of discomfort, or the quiet "just tolerate it" behavior.  I think, in the OTHER END OF THE LEASH, there are some pics of people "rewarding" a dog for fetching with physical affection and the dog is clearly offended by the touching, go take a look and then watch your dogs and see if maybe they are giving you similar subtle signals. I have some videos of Ed Frawley patting hard-core working dogs on the head as a reward and universally they all gave him a disgusted glance. Some dogs do enjoy physical affection as a reward at any time; are you 100% sure your dog is one of them?  

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.........but, as I said I don't follow my dogs around to pet them all the time......last summer I had six....that would have been a lot of time used for touching the dogs......but, when I put on my shoes and jacket and pick up certain toys for outside activities, they certainly don't look like they are forced to interact....yes, I know they love their toys, but wagging tails approaching me for praise tells me enough....

I've been trying to think about how to articulate a relationship with a dog. I'm talking about ME 20-30 years ago and dogs trained using dominance theory/praise/chokers/NO as was the "fashion" back then. I'm not talking about YOU whoever you may be. The relationship was based on "I'm the boss; because I'm the boss you have to obey me and follow my rules; because I'm the boss". It carried an implied threat: if you don't follow the rules, I will MAKE YOU follow them. Works ok, the dog ends up well-mannered and obedient, and appears happy, and the owners are happy cause the dog doesn't do irritating things, and on some level it gives you some degree of pleasure to "be a boss" and have some creature who obeys your orders and apparently adores you immensely. But then the doubt creeps in: is this affection the dog is offering, or is it "appeasement signals"? is the dog following me around because he adores me, or because he needs to keep an eye on that irrational lunatic in case "something that might be bad for dogs" happens? Is he coming when called because he likes me, or because he's afraid I'll do something unpleasant to him if he doesn't? is he really enjoying this game, or just humoring me because he's afraid I'll do something unpleasant to him? If your relationship is based on "I'm the boss" you can never be certain of what the answers to these questions are.

Fast-forward to now: the relationship is based on choice and fun. If you do this you can have this! isn't that fun? Do you want to play a fun game with me- if you don't want to, that's fine. You do! all right, let's play!  Oh look, you're offering to heel! how fun for you and for me. Oh joy, you came when called, let's have fun together. Not only are SURE your dog likes you, and you know full well what is motivating the dog to follow your rules: she's heeling cause she likes food; she's fetching cause she enjoys chasing frisbees; she's racing towards me when recalled because I am the source of all that is fun and good; oddly enough the dogs end up better-behaved and better-trained than in the other kind of relationship, a concept that many folks don't believe, but it is true.

mudpuppy

I think, in the OTHER END OF THE LEASH, there are some pics of people "rewarding" a dog for fetching with physical affection and the dog is clearly offended by the touching, go take a look and then watch your dogs and see if maybe they are giving you similar subtle signals.

I have known that with the frisbee dogs we have had, the act of taking the frisbee after the dog has released it and giving the dog another toss [is] the reward. Not pats on top of the head required. The dog just wants another toss and could care less about a pat on the head or a "good boy" verbal praise gesture.

Yes, if it ain't broke, don't change it.

And Muddpuppy, you are so correct in your assessment and if I wanted my dog and me to have an EMPLOYER and EMPLOYEE relationship, then I would go the food route.  But I much prefer a strong bond relationship where the dog gets the most joy from just me and not a paycheck. 

to each his own, but I find this to be rather repulsive and "demeaning to dogs" attitude- that a dog, an intelligent, sentient being, would be so wrapped up in earning approval from a human that he would be willing to engage in all sorts of, to the dog, pointless behaviors. If you had a spouse who acted like that, you, or at least most people, would be concerned about the mental health of that person. That's how cult leaders work- they brainwash their members into thinking "approval from the leader" is the most important thing in the world.

I prefer to be honest- My approval and affection is just not as valuable or as exciting as roast beef or a frisbee or a fleeing deer.

One reason I think this is I've been in more than one class where the intructor berated the student about the relationship- something is wrong with your relationship! look, the dog thinks chasing rabbits is better than earning your approval for performing a (to a dog) pointless off-leash heel exercise! and the student bursts into tears, and we all look at the happy beagle and try, and fail, to come up with some way for the student to become more exciting than a rabbit. Which is where people usually give up and start reaching for the punishments. Unrealistic expectations of dog behavior.

tssst

I have known that with the frisbee dogs we have had, the act of taking the frisbee after the dog has released it and giving the dog another toss [is] the reward. Not pats on top of the head required. The dog just wants another toss and could care less about a pat on the head or a "good boy" verbal praise gesture.

Yes, if it ain't broke, don't change it.

Because of the way the human-dog relationship is defined, my dogs and that includes newbie fosters, would take a hug, yes a hug, over another toss of the frisbie.  Another toss of the frisbie would happen but so would a hug.

mudpuppy

I'm talking about ME [...] I'm not talking about YOU whoever you may be.

mudpuppy

The relationship was based on "I'm the boss; because I'm the boss you have to obey me and follow my rules; because I'm the boss". It carried an implied threat: if you don't follow the rules, I will MAKE YOU follow them. Works ok, the dog ends up well-mannered and obedient, and appears happy, and the owners are happy cause the dog doesn't do irritating things, and on some level it gives you some degree of pleasure to "be a boss" and have some creature who obeys your orders and apparently adores you immensely.

If you're talking about yourself, why are you saying, "you"? It would be more correct (and perhaps more revealing) for you to say, "I was happy cause the dog didn't do irritating things, and on some level it gave me some degree of pleasure to "be a boss" and have some creature who obeyed my orders and apparently adored me immensely"

If that was your experience 30 years ago, I think it's great that you changed your mind and are doing things differently now, because your relationship was clearly "broke" as conveyed by the title of the thread.

But one important thing to realize is that not all people have the same thought processes that you do or did. The paragraph above does not IN ANY WAY represent my relationship with my dogs. You have apparently taken yourself 30 years ago, as if it were a template, applied it to other people with whom you don't see eye to eye, including me.

I'm sorry, mudpuppy, I have seen you do this time and time again. You take a narrow experience of yours and apply it, like a cookie cutter, to everyone. Kind of a "Well, if I felt that way, then everyone feels that way" attitude. "If my dog responded that way, then every dog will respond that way". It's unfortunate because you're missing out on the endless possibilities that exist. It also closes your mind to learning from the nuances of other people's human and canine relationships.

mudpuppy

I prefer to be honest- My approval and affection is just not as valuable or as exciting as roast beef or a frisbee or a fleeing deer.

And that is ok if that is what you want.  But for me, behavior changes and training is so much less complicated when my approval and affection is received and then reciprocated back.  Approval  and affection is so intertwined with trust and as you know there is only one way to build and further trust.

mudpuppy

Not only are SURE your dog likes you, and you know full well what is motivating the dog to follow your rules: she's heeling cause she likes food; she's fetching cause she enjoys chasing frisbees; she's racing towards me when recalled because I am the source of all that is fun and good; oddly enough the dogs end up better-behaved and better-trained than in the other kind of relationship, a concept that many folks don't believe, but it is true.

Interesting....that is how I operate.....only, I don't use food....but, then we all know with clicker/treat training the food reward is eventually faded out......and other motivational rewards are offered, such as praise, playtime, toys........or even frisbee.......so how is food better again if it's only offered in the beginning......UNLESS.....one has to use food all the time to get the dog motivated.....

I think it's hilarious that some are so bothered by the thought of a food motivated dog.  Hang around with a lab sometime.  They are HIGHLY food motived dogs.  Just about any person who has owned labs for years will tell you that, just about any lab breeder will tell you that.  Why do you think that labs get fat so easily?  It's not because they are picky eaters.  I actually limit how much food I use in training with Jack because he is SO food motived that it makes him lose focus if it is used too much.  I did not make him that way, he came to me that way.  I use food in the beginning of teaching a new behavior because it helps him focus in small amounts and really drives the point home and that's what I want.  If people who have never met me or my dog and have never worked with said dog then want to conclude that we therefore have a horrific relationship, they can knock themselves out--they'll look rather silly considering Jack is a total Velcro dog.... 

I think it makes perfect sense that some dogs are not into touch while they are "working" because most dogs bred to do something are not bred to do it while a human is touching them.  Herding dogs and scent hounds generally are farther away from their handlers while they are working.  I know a guy with beagles that they have specifically for hunting.  They don't touch the dogs while they are hunting--they let them go do their thing, shoot the rabbit, and then when it is all said and done they offer some affection.  Hunters who use gun dogs do not want the dog to be focused on being pet when they are about to have them go retrieve--they want them to focus on where the bird fell.