Don't Fix It if It Ain't Broke

sillysally

I think it's hilarious that some are so bothered by the thought of a food motivated dog.  Hang around with a lab sometime. 

I don't think its hilarious but sad that people would reach way down to the dog basic survival need, create hunger just to make the dog perform at will tricks by humans.  I have a lab foster, who is overweight because of not enough exercise.  He is not food driven but I can MAKE him food driven as "just about any person" does.

This food motivation discussion is interesting, but I don't feel that it is in line with the subject of this thread... It would however, make a great thread of its own, doncha think?  

snownose

....so how is food better again if it's only offered in the beginning......UNLESS.....one has to use food all the time to get the dog motivated.....

I use it in the beginning because the clicker has to be charged and the new behavior shaped.  Other rewards are cumbersome and inefficient.  So far, I've not found another reward I can give that the dog enjoys and understands that I can give to the dog 30 times in a row in a span of a minute or less.  I don't use food as a motivator for Kenya.  I typically get her excited for training by rough-housing for a few minutes, playing fetch or letting her jump all over me.  If I need to charge the clicker, tiny bits of food are use.  If I need to shape a behavior, food is used.  I do not believe that a click/reward ends the behavior so when shaping, I need to be able to mark and reward without the dog moving out of position or thinking that behavior is over.  Ergo, toys, games, and affection don't work for me in those situations because they break up the behavior and encourage the dog to move out of position.  If I am shaping a very close formal heel, I will mark and treat while we are heeling.  If I was going for 10 paces of formal heel and I got it, then I will do a quick game or play with a toy because the behavior is over, but I can't use a toy as a reward while we are heeling and I can't expect the dog to offer longer periods of heeling without some sort of marker during the behavior to indicate "yes, good dog!  you are doing it right, keep going..."

DPU

sillysally

I think it's hilarious that some are so bothered by the thought of a food motivated dog.  Hang around with a lab sometime. 

I don't think its hilarious but sad that people would reach way down to the dog basic survival need, create hunger just to make the dog perform at will tricks by humans.  I have a lab foster, who is overweight because of not enough exercise.  He is not food driven but I can MAKE him food driven as "just about any person" does.

If your lab foster is not food motived, then he is not in line with the majority of labs.  If you don't believe me, lurk on a lab board and read some of the posts.  The breed is known for it's food motivation, I'm sorry if you have an issue with that, but that is how it is.  Both of my dogs could have just eaten and will still want food.  If I free fed Jack he would be unable to walk properly due to his elbow pain and he would STILL want more food.  There is no creation of hunger necessary.  I can feed him an whole meal and he will still want more food if you will give it to him.  BOTH of his vets consider this pretty normal.

Not all dogs are into or motived by the same things.  I don't see why that is so difficult to accept. 

DPU

sillysally

I think it's hilarious that some are so bothered by the thought of a food motivated dog.  Hang around with a lab sometime. 

I don't think its hilarious but sad that people would reach way down to the dog basic survival need, create hunger just to make the dog perform at will tricks by humans.  I have a lab foster, who is overweight because of not enough exercise.  He is not food driven but I can MAKE him food driven as "just about any person" does.

And I have a lean, muscular, well-exercised, HIGHLY food motivated lab.  I have never needed to "create hunger" in him, he is simply motivated by food more than toys - oh, except at the park, where he is more motivated by tennis balls, so I use them.  To imply that I have somehow manipulated my pet into accepting something as a reward that he wouldn't ordinarily go for isn't just wrong, it's actually offensive. 

I find it odd that someone who so strenuously advocates "meeting a dog's needs" would disparage the use of food even when food is clearly what meets a specific dog's needs in terms of finding something it will work for.  And while I'm on the subject, would you consistently and permanently withhold physical affection from your dogs?  No?  So that's a basic need too, and shouldn't be used as a training reward either, especially in a dog who has been starved of affection because it lived out it's first few years of life in the backyard with little to no human contact.  

My point is that a reward HAS to be, at its heart, a basic need in order to be worth working for...unless they've started making Manolo Blahniks for dogs, because I'll work for those but acknowledge that unfortunately they aren't a basic need.

Food rewards can be used judiciously and to great effect.  To some dogs they are the only motivator, to others they are the best motivator in certain circumstances but not in others, like my Ben. 

sillysally

If your lab foster is not food motived, then he is not in line with the majority of labs. 

As I said, I believe I can make any dog food motivated.  Why is it so hard to grasp that the "majority of lab owners" are doing just that.

 As an aside, I found  "What Motivates You Dog"poll on my lab board.  The top motivated was food by a vast majority, followed by by toys, and then praise.

If you could make any dog food motivated, then I wonder why some members come on and say that their dogs are not food motivated even though they have tried to use treats in training?  One poster on my lab board said that she was surprised to learn that her male lab was not food motived, and her 2 females were highly food motived.  Is she somehow starving the females and then stuffing the male full of food?

Jack literally came to me highly food motived and in good puppy weight.  He was not starved, that was just part of who he was and is and I embrace that as part of his wonderful personality.  Why is it so hard for you to grasp that MAYBE I might just know my own dog better than you do?    

Admin speaking...

At the request of the OP, I have opened a new thread to discuss the philosophy of rewarding with food, so that this one can be kept for it's original purpose.  Please move discussion of food rewards to that thread, and I hope the OP will accept my apology for my own part in this thread being off-topic.

Thank you. 

Benedict

To imply that I have somehow manipulated my pet into accepting something as a reward that he wouldn't ordinarily go for isn't just wrong, it's actually offensive. 

No need to be offended if it no applicable to you.  Food is meant for nourishment and to eliminate hunger.  This my responsibility to the dog.  If it is used for other reasons, then I question why and if there are other alternatives.  Do you not aggree that the human can choose the human preferred motivator for the dog?

Again, you are throwing at me the Employer-Employee relationship of a dog working to fulfill its needs.  That is not the relationship I want with my dogs.

Benedict

Admin speaking...

At the request of the OP,

So Spiritdogs was right?

 Well that's a rather oblique question.....to what are you referring?  I would appreciate it if the answer came via PM, so as not to derail this thread off-topic in a brand new direction.

snownose

Sigh.........but the dog is always in the mood for food.......right? What do you call that?

I call that opportunistic! Nothing more, nothing less! That's what dogs are (and I would argue that's what their closest ancestors were too), give or take the artificial selection for certain motor patterns (the hunt and kill has been exacerbated in some more than others).

It doesn't make them food-obsessed, it makes them innately desire to take advantage when they can get it. Two different things. I can leave a bowl of food on the counter, on the floor, on my bed beside me, and the dogs won't touch it. They could sleep right by it and wouldn't give a hoot. But at the same time if I told them it's okay to eat it, you bet they would. The same way they will sometimes eat/roll in animal droppings, the same way they will eat the mouse they dug out of the snow if they could. They are opportunists, not obsessed.

I've seen a truly food obsessed dog. And you know? A truly food obsessed dog cannot learn when they see food present. If a dog sees food, they fixate on it as a dog-aggressive dog fixates on another dog. They stare at it, tense, sometimes quivering. They don't hear you, and likely wouldn't feel it if you hit them with a two by four. When they see food they are reacting just like a dog would react to a fearful stimulus. They are not in an operant (learning) frame of mind, and it is very hard to teach these dogs anything with food. So it surprises me to hear these claims of "food obsession", since they are two very different things.

Benedict

Admin speaking...

At the request of the OP, I have opened a new thread to discuss the philosophy of rewarding with food, so that this one can be kept for it's original purpose.  Please move discussion of food rewards to that thread, and I hope the OP will accept my apology for my own part in this thread being off-topic.

Thank you. 

My apologies about the above post then. I am behind in reading (university will do that to ya...hehe) and tend to reply as I see things so I don't forget, so I didn't see this until after I had posted.

Kim_MacMillan

I've seen a truly food obsessed dog. And you know? A truly food obsessed dog cannot learn when they see food present. If a dog sees food, they fixate on it as a dog-aggressive dog fixates on another dog. They stare at it, tense, sometimes quivering. They don't hear you, and likely wouldn't feel it if you hit them with a two by four. When they see food they are reacting just like a dog would react to a fearful stimulus. They are not in an operant (learning) frame of mind, and it is very hard to teach these dogs anything with food. So it surprises me to hear these claims of "food obsession", since they are two very different things.

You actually made my point.........there is a good chance that a dog that has been rescued from a situation where food was not available on a regular basis.......starving or emaciated has ended up in a rescuers home.....are you getting the picture of what I have had to deal with and a few others on this board.....?

There are dogs, unlike yours, that have had to worry about food to survive all their lives....can you even enter that in your approach of dealing with dogs.....I think not.....according to you, the animals present in your parents' home are bred, just as your dogs have been bred right into your hands by your parents.....think about it..........

Kim_MacMillan

I've seen a truly food obsessed dog. And you know? A truly food obsessed dog cannot learn when they see food present. If a dog sees food, they fixate on it as a dog-aggressive dog fixates on another dog. They stare at it, tense, sometimes quivering. They don't hear you, and likely wouldn't feel it if you hit them with a two by four. When they see food they are reacting just like a dog would react to a fearful stimulus. They are not in an operant (learning) frame of mind, and it is very hard to teach these dogs anything with food. So it surprises me to hear these claims of "food obsession", since they are two very different things.

Yep, that's my dog. And guess what? I've never used food to teach her anything but to sit before she gets her dinner. Once she learnt that at 8 weeks old within days of coming into the house, all she can do when she sees food is sit and stare at it. And then sit harder. Every once in a while, she tries a bark or something that often works in other situations, but if she doesn't get food immediately, she abandons it and goes back to sitting because that one works more often. If it's not a wildly amazing piece of food, I can get her to lie down for it these days, and speak for it, but I didn't teach either of those behaviours with food, so it's more a matter of having a piece of food low value enough that she isn't quite as fixated as she is normally and eventually registers that you're patiently asking for something she knows how to do that isn't a sit. I could maybe have persisted and got through to her somewhat, but I decided I wasn't patient enough when praise worked fine.

The only other thing I've ever used food for with her is getting her focus away from the dog monster next door as we go past. It was the only thing that could trump her desire to stick her nose in every gap in that fence and try to bite the dog on the other side. 

Snownose, I certainly did not say it was weird for a dog to not want to be touched when training. I said it was completely normal for a dog to not want to be touched anytime anywhere. As in, normal for dogs to want alone time, or times when they are happy to interact but don't want physical affection.