Dog Walking - out front or behind?

I don't know, because it's one activity they are likely to choose to do, if they are allowed to.  Running, sniffing, leaving wee-mails....  When I let my dogs off the leads I NEVER see them walk along sedately, at a human pace, in a straight line, without dropping their nose to the floor.  It just seems to kind of.... I don't know.  Unnatural is probably the wrong word, most of the things we ask dogs to do are unnatural.  "Forced" is not a good word either, because it's loaded and I'm guaranteed to be misunderstood.  It just seems really wooden and un-fun to me.  If I didn't have dogs, I wouldn;t walk.  I go for THEIR benefit.  It seems only right to let them get the maximum benefit and enjoyment out of it, and to express as many natural behaviours as is comfortable and safe for them to do so.  (That's one of the "Five Freedoms" - freedom to express natural behaviour, so it's considered pretty important for an animal's general welfare... I certainly think so.)

Cassidys Mom

If you insisted on taking your wife for a walk every day whether she wanted to go or not, and took her on a route of your choosing and length that she wasn't interested in and had no input in choosing

Then i assume that when you take your dogs out for a walk they are the ones who decide where to go, for how long and when to return home and you dont have any vote in those decisions, talking about leaders and followers!!

Cassidys Mom

not check out anything along the route that captured her interest

What if your dogs are interested in that wild rabbit, i assume you dont let them chase him, even when the rabbit capture their interest, are they "shut down" because you didnt let them? sure, for security reasons you dont let them, but that does not mean they dont "shut down" or at least are unhappy with you as you suggest it happens when you dont let a dog doing something they are interested in

Like i said to Glenda, why they have to sniff all the time to consider a dog happy? i still let my dog sniff but not all the time, why you can forbid your dogs to chase a rabbit even when that makes them happy but i cant ask my dog to walk next to me? how do you know my dog is not happy doing that? i think we bond and connect even more that way rather than her doing her own stuff and me doing mine during the walk 

Chuffy

When I let my dogs off the leads I NEVER see them walk along sedately, at a human pace, in a straight line, without dropping their nose to the floor. 

Have you teach them to do it that way?

Chuffy

It just seems really wooden and un-fun to me.

Chuffy

It seems only right to let them get the maximum benefit and enjoyment out of it

It's all in your mind, your fear of feeling guilty if you dont let them do what they want during the walk, well you dont let them do a lot of stuff already and walking them the way you do relieves some of that guilt 

Regardless of old theories to the contrary, the dog's position in the walk is not about who is leader. The dog listening to the human is about the human being leader. I was proofing heel today. No treat or clicker on or about my person. Shadow was sniffing something interesting and I called heel and got his nose on my hand. I've done it when he's out in front and when he's straggling behind.  So, to me, whereever your dog walks is fine as long as you can realize they are listening to you. The dog walking behind or beside you doesn't make you pack leader and anyone who says that is wrong, imo. Being the one who has all the good things for listening to what you say is being a leader.

Dogs do what works. It's an immutable fact of life. The sun rises. Ripe figs fall from trees. Dogs do what works.

Meditate with me .... om ..... om .... dogs do what works ... dogs do what works ....

My own version of zen and the art of dog walking.

GoldenAC

Chuffy

What about Guide Dogs (Seeing Eye dogs??) ?  They are NEVER walked the "CM way" are they?  They do literally "lead" their handlers/owners in many scenarios.  Can a blind person be an adequate "leader" in the dogs eyes?  Would a blind dog ever take the position of "alpha" in a group?  Whatever the answers, it doesn't stop guide dogs being well behaved and socially acceptable (and it's even MORE important that they are socially acceptable, given their line of work and the number of public places they get taken to).

If you think about it, the work most breeds of dogs were created to perform entails the dog being in front!  Think about it, all hunting dogs, sled dogs, herding dogs, even guard and police dogs.  Thinking about it the only type of dog who would work along side its human would be draft dogs.  So as far as I can tell, the natural state of dogs is most typically in front of the human.

Actually, if you look at labs out in the field, they are generally next to the hunters until instructed to retrieve..... 

espencer

 

Like i said to Glenda, why they have to sniff all the time to consider a dog happy? i still let my dog sniff but not all the time, why you can forbid your dogs to chase a rabbit even when that makes them happy but i cant ask my dog to walk next to me? how do you know my dog is not happy doing that? i think we bond and connect even more that way rather than her doing her own stuff and me doing mine during the walk 

Sorry, but I don't think you said this to me....I hadn't mentioned sniffing.  But, now that you bring it up.......when they are off lead in the woods, my dogs rarely have their noses to the ground, but, when they get a scent they WILL go under a tree enmass and sniff the daylights out of whatever they smell there.  This usually continues until I'm good and caught up or I call to them.  On a leash walk?  They can do some sniffing, but I don't think it benefits any of us to stand there all day sniffing the same spot.

I've not taught my dogs to stay single file, but they for some reason normally do.  But, they sure aren't moving at a sedate human pace....and that might be why the noses are not to the ground all that much. My crew really get immense pleasure from the running or just lopping along.

I call my dogs off wildlife for a couple of reasons.  First and foremost, I feel that WE are violating the natural habitat of those animals.  If a coyote or bobcat gets them, ok, THEY live there too. Rule of the wild.   We don't live in the woods.  Our walking there intrudes on the wildlifes natural habitat.  To me, it's a bit like the hunters in their HEATED blinds who bait the deer so they'll stop to eat apples not 10 feet in front of the blind.  Not fair.  But there is also the issue of the coyotes and bobcats in the woods and I'd just as soon not have my dogs run into those....or get deep into a chase and run out in the road.  Doesn't matter that the road is a good ways off....if a deer is running for it's life, it's going to get OUT of the woods and I don't want it, or my dogs, to be roadkill, and I certainly don't want the driver of a vehicle to be injured or traumatized either.

 And while I periodically request a heel, just to be sure they remember it, whether on lead or off, that sure isn't the position they are in for 99% of our walks.  They just don't need to heel all the time.  No reason for it.

I really don't see why people have such an issue with the idea of asking a dog to walk by their owner's side (not necessarily in a heel all the time, but at their side) in certain situations such as walking in a neighborhood, etc.  If I stop or slow significantly, then the dogs can stop and sniff, if I ask for a heel they cannot sniff, and if we are moving at a regular pace they can sniff if they can do it on the fly, but I will randomly ask for a "watch me" to make sure they are still paying attention.  If we are hiking they have more leeway as long as they are not pulling, but Sally will generally start pulling as she slips into "Sally La-la Land" so we have to keep on top of that.

I also think that we get rather hung up on on whether an activity is "natural" for a dog.  Perhaps walking by the side at a loose leash is not natural for a dog, but walking with a human isn't exactly "natural" either.  As a matter of fact, neither is the leash itself--or the collar, or the dish the dog eats out of, or the dog's food, or the dog's bedding, or the dog park, or the fact than many dogs are single dogs, or the dogs training classes, or learning commands, or doggie daycare, or crating, or fenced yards, or regular vet care, or dog toys, etc, etc, etc.  However, I don't see people having this much of an issue about those things.....  

ETA:  While Jack tends to run about when first off-leash, he generally settles in next to me after a while.  I will inform him that he is most unnatural....... 

Forward, Behind

I think it's up to the dog owners to decide what works best.

I have taught my dogs do both for specific reasons.

Christina, I don't think what folks are getting hung up on is the "beside" so much as the heel for the entire walk, each and every time.  At least, that's what hangs me up.

Is that what you were taught when you took Chance for training?  What makes you think that the simple act of walking on a loose leash in front of you is going to make a dog think he's in charge?  I am honestly not challenging you, I'd really like to know why you think that.

I share my home with six german shepherds.  I'm very much in charge here, but my dogs don't walk beside me even on leash unless I ask them to.  I'm just really curious why you believe that your dog has to walk at your side to be submissive to you.

espencer

Chuffy

When I let my dogs off the leads I NEVER see them walk along sedately, at a human pace, in a straight line, without dropping their nose to the floor. 

 

Have you teach them to do it that way?

Of course not.  Part of the purpose of the walk is for them to let their hair down a little.  I don't have to teach a dog how to enjoy himself.  I just let him to what comes naturally, provided (as ron said) that he checks back in with me if I ask him to.  Do teachers go outside with kids at playtime and teach them how to have fun?  No, they just let them run and play and only step in if there is squabbling or dangerous/rough play. 

espencer

It's all in your mind, your fear of feeling guilty if you dont let them do what they want during the walk, well you dont let them do a lot of stuff already and walking them the way you do relieves some of that guilt 

No, it is not "all in my mind".  And it has nothing to do with guilt.  I just don't see the POINT of having a dog if you don't get some enjoyment from that dog-ness.  I don't get much fun out of my dog plodding along next to me.  I like to see him exploring and having fun as much as he is able.  And I don't see the POINT of restricting him on lead that much.  Even if you can teach "leadership" that way, there's other ways that are not so restricting, so why bother?  As long as he isn't pulling me and as long as he "offs" when I ask him to that's all I ask.

sillysally

I really don't see why people have such an issue with the idea of asking a dog to walk by their owner's side (not necessarily in a heel all the time, but at their side) in certain situations such as walking in a neighborhood, etc.  If I stop or slow significantly, then the dogs can stop and sniff, if I ask for a heel they cannot sniff, and if we are moving at a regular pace they can sniff if they can do it on the fly, but I will randomly ask for a "watch me" to make sure they are still paying attention.  If we are hiking they have more leeway as long as they are not pulling, but Sally will generally start pulling as she slips into "Sally La-la Land" so we have to keep on top of that.

I also think that we get rather hung up on on whether an activity is "natural" for a dog.  Perhaps walking by the side at a loose leash is not natural for a dog, but walking with a human isn't exactly "natural" either.  As a matter of fact, neither is the leash itself--or the collar, or the dish the dog eats out of, or the dog's food, or the dog's bedding, or the dog park, or the fact than many dogs are single dogs, or the dogs training classes, or learning commands, or doggie daycare, or crating, or fenced yards, or regular vet care, or dog toys, etc, etc, etc.  However, I don't see people having this much of an issue about those things.....  

ETA:  While Jack tends to run about when first off-leash, he generally settles in next to me after a while.  I will inform him that he is most unnatural....... 

I think I used the term "unnatural" but I also expressed that I didn't feel it was the right word as most things we expect of our dogs could be considered the same, (up to and including making them walk on a loose lead beside you and not pull you down the street.)  I think it's the restricting them more than really is needed to make them believe you are in charge and be submissive to you - that's what I don't get.  In fact, I've SEEN folks round here walk their dogs like that and there is no loose lead, because they are quite anal about taking up the slack and barely giving the dog room to move at all.  I genuinely don't see the point!  A dog running about for a bit and then CHOOSING to take up that spot anyway is a bit different IMO.

espencer

Then i assume that when you take your dogs out for a walk they are the ones who decide where to go, for how long and when to return home and you dont have any vote in those decisions, talking about leaders and followers!!

Then you would assume wrong.  My dogs don't NEED to be behind me for me to control the path that we take.  And my dogs aren't leashed in the woods.  They are running free, which, by golly, I enjoy watching from my place BEHIND them.  When they come to a place that there is a choice to be made, guess what?  They WAIT for me without a word until I tell them which way to go.  If it's a true turn in the path, I don't tell them until I've caught up and then I'll tell them, "this way" and off they go.  For lack of better terminology, yep, I'm the leader, they are the followers, even tho I am BEHIND them for the bulk of the walk.  And I can call ONE of the six back and ask for a heel and by golly, I get that heel while the others romp on ahead.  And by golly if I call out wait or stop, they freeze....doesn't matter what they are doing. And they don't budge until I release them with "go ahead".  So, is that enough of being the leader for you?  A TRUE leader can lead from any position.

On lead is a little different because that's almost always in town where they need to remember their manners and remember that they can't trot off and come back at will because it's a different setting.  But, they still are normally out front, unless I ask for a heel, or unless someone WANTS to be next to me.  But, the ears are in constant motion, moving back and forth to be sure they don't miss a single word that I say.  So yep, I'm still the leader there too.

To me the relationship with my dogs is key.  That includes trust and respect on both sides.....I respect them enough to allow them to be dogs, I trust them to do what I ask.  They respect that I'm the "mom" and what I say goes, and they trust me to keep them safe, but let them be dogs at the same time.  If people can think outside the box of what they are "supposed" to do according to this trainer or that, and go more on their instincts with their dogs, everyone can have a whole lot more fun.

My life can be pretty darned stressful....but when I'm watching my dogs romping in the woods, I forget all that, and LAUGH and have a blast.  That's gotta be worth something.  Guilt?  Doesn't exist when it comes to my dogs.....lots of other stuff, sure, but not one bit of it in my relationship with my dogs.....

sillysally

GoldenAC

Chuffy

What about Guide Dogs (Seeing Eye dogs??) ?  They are NEVER walked the "CM way" are they?  They do literally "lead" their handlers/owners in many scenarios.  Can a blind person be an adequate "leader" in the dogs eyes?  Would a blind dog ever take the position of "alpha" in a group?  Whatever the answers, it doesn't stop guide dogs being well behaved and socially acceptable (and it's even MORE important that they are socially acceptable, given their line of work and the number of public places they get taken to).

If you think about it, the work most breeds of dogs were created to perform entails the dog being in front!  Think about it, all hunting dogs, sled dogs, herding dogs, even guard and police dogs.  Thinking about it the only type of dog who would work along side its human would be draft dogs.  So as far as I can tell, the natural state of dogs is most typically in front of the human.

 

Actually, if you look at labs out in the field, they are generally next to the hunters until instructed to retrieve..... 

That is to protect hunting dogs from being shot accidentally.  But, it still doesn't change the fact that Border Collies, Aussies, Cattle Dogs, Rottweilers and Shepherds all work sheep, cattle, and other livestock wayyyyy ahead of the handler more often than not.  And, it doesn't change the fact that hounds tree the coon way ahead of the hunters' arrival.  If the hounds were in charge, the hunter wouldn't be able to call them off from ripping the critter to shreds once it fell from the tree, and the shepherd would not be able to keep the Border Collie from actually killing the sheep.  These humans are the leaders.  Dogs do what works, and what works is getting a reward for behavior - and repeating it to continue getting that reward.  Simple.  Om.  Om.