Dog Walking - out front or behind?

GoldenAC

If you think about it, the work most breeds of dogs were created to perform entails the dog being in front!

This is true. But we're not working our dogs when we're out for a leashed walk, are we? I suppose we each have somewhat different reasons for walking the dog on the leash... Some live in the city where safety is an issue. They may determine it's important for their dog to be right beside them should a skateboarder come along, or perhaps it's for training purposes. Some live in the country and rarely walk their dog on a leash, but want it to be right beside them when they do, so the dog can clearly differentiate the "energy" of a leashed walk from the energy of a free time in the field. Others let their dogs roam on all leashed walks because it's the only "out and about" time their dogs get. And some have experience that the dog out front tends to pull on the leash, so they keep it in a "heel" to prevent pulling. I could go on...

And they're ALL okay. As long as the dog is getting proper exercise (not necessarily on the structured walk), I don't see a problem with how people choose to walk their dogs. It's when we start talking about the reasons we teach our dogs how we want them to walk, that people get all bent out of shape. And I can't be sure, but I don't think the dogs CARE about the reasons.

spiritdogs

Dogs do what works, and what works is getting a reward for behavior - and repeating it to continue getting that reward.  Simple. 

Even if that behavior is walking beside or behind the owner (for whatever reasons the owner deems necessary or important). 

Dogs do what works, and what works is getting a reward for behavior - and repeating it to continue getting that reward.  Simple. 

Even if that behavior is walking beside or behind the owner (for whatever reasons the owner deems necessary or important). 

Glad you finally came to appreciate the power of positive reinforcement.    Now you also, no doubt, realize that what the dog does of its own volition to get its reward can hardly be called a forced march.  Big difference from being coerced, kicked, or yanked to stay beside or behind the "leader".

spiritdogs

Glad you finally came to appreciate the power of positive reinforcement.

What do you mean, "finally"? I've used and appreciated the power of positive reinforcement ever since I've had animals. It's one of my most valuable tools. It's just not the ONLY tool I use. 

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Glad you finally came to appreciate the power of positive reinforcement.

 

Positive reinforcement comes in many forms....not just a clicker and a treat....

I am certain we all use it in one form or another....

Chuffy

sillysally

I really don't see why people have such an issue with the idea of asking a dog to walk by their owner's side (not necessarily in a heel all the time, but at their side) in certain situations such as walking in a neighborhood, etc.  If I stop or slow significantly, then the dogs can stop and sniff, if I ask for a heel they cannot sniff, and if we are moving at a regular pace they can sniff if they can do it on the fly, but I will randomly ask for a "watch me" to make sure they are still paying attention.  If we are hiking they have more leeway as long as they are not pulling, but Sally will generally start pulling as she slips into "Sally La-la Land" so we have to keep on top of that.

I also think that we get rather hung up on on whether an activity is "natural" for a dog.  Perhaps walking by the side at a loose leash is not natural for a dog, but walking with a human isn't exactly "natural" either.  As a matter of fact, neither is the leash itself--or the collar, or the dish the dog eats out of, or the dog's food, or the dog's bedding, or the dog park, or the fact than many dogs are single dogs, or the dogs training classes, or learning commands, or doggie daycare, or crating, or fenced yards, or regular vet care, or dog toys, etc, etc, etc.  However, I don't see people having this much of an issue about those things.....  

ETA:  While Jack tends to run about when first off-leash, he generally settles in next to me after a while.  I will inform him that he is most unnatural....... 

 

I think I used the term "unnatural" but I also expressed that I didn't feel it was the right word as most things we expect of our dogs could be considered the same, (up to and including making them walk on a loose lead beside you and not pull you down the street.)  I think it's the restricting them more than really is needed to make them believe you are in charge and be submissive to you - that's what I don't get.  In fact, I've SEEN folks round here walk their dogs like that and there is no loose lead, because they are quite anal about taking up the slack and barely giving the dog room to move at all.  I genuinely don't see the point!  A dog running about for a bit and then CHOOSING to take up that spot anyway is a bit different IMO.

Actually, my reasons for having the dogs walk beside me have nothing to do with leadership issues.  If Sally gets out in front she stops paying attention and starts pulling.  She can be a little reactive with dogs, but has gotten a LOT better after working with a trainer, and I don't think it's a good idea to put her in a position where she can start reacting to a dog and thus get a chance to practice unwanted behavior.  Also, Sally is not the most secure dog in the world and sometimes it seems like she is comforted by us telling her where to walk then having us let her go where she wants.  We've tried allowing her complete freedom while we are on walks and it just does not work.  Jack would probably be OK with it (when he is in front it is very easy to get his attention, if he gets distracted it is very easy to get the focus back on me, and he is much more confident than Sally, but I don't see a point in having different rules for each dog, especially when I we do sometimes walk them together.  Also, the dogs are generally kept at a loose lead.  If they get too far ahead, they are asked to "slow."  The only time they might have a more restricted leash length is when one of them is being a total asshat--and even then it is not kept that way for the whole walk--only long enough for the dog to decide it is more productive to behave.    

snownose

FourIsCompany

spiritdogs

Glad you finally came to appreciate the power of positive reinforcement.

 

 

Positive reinforcement comes in many forms....not just a clicker and a treat....

I am certain we all use it in one form or another....

So, how do you use it on your walks? 

Bkimura28

I don't do either. I hold Chance right close to my side. If you let them walk in front of you, thats making them think they are the "pack leader" which isn't good because that can become dominant. It might be okay if there walking behind you a little because then thats putting you in the "pack position" but I wouldn't let them walk more then a foot behind you. Hope that helped!

I'm curious as to where such a ridiculous idea comes from.  Where do people come up with this stuff??? 

spiritdogs

Bkimura28

I don't do either. I hold Chance right close to my side. If you let them walk in front of you, thats making them think they are the "pack leader" which isn't good because that can become dominant. It might be okay if there walking behind you a little because then thats putting you in the "pack position" but I wouldn't let them walk more then a foot behind you. Hope that helped!

 

I'm curious as to where such a ridiculous idea comes from.  Where do people come up with this stuff??? 

Do people really think that walking a dog straight by their side every inch of the way is correct or the way?  During training I see the benefit but not just becasue...

When I was training River I would have him walk calmly besides me on leash.  Leaning how to walk in heel was important to me, so I taught it.  But depending where we were walking I would give him some freedom and extra lead to sniff, poop, pee or just check out things.

If we are free, in the woods, on a path I let him go.  The truth is he, or my other dogs never go far.  They all tend to go in front of me, never to far off the path and if I lag behind to far they actually wait or run back to me and then sprint ahead again.  As for who is leader, usually my over energetic Catahoula in out front, my pug lags behind but up front and River just meanders around.

If we go into the fields, then they all scatter – they are all off smelling something different but still again they go nowhere far.  All my dogs are use to squirrel, deer and rabbits they see them everyday while they are loose on my property so they don’t get overly excited unless they are taken by surprise.

River is my only dog who is trusted off lead in an environment where most dogs need a leash.  And he know when I tell him “stay by me” that he is to walk with me and he does with no problems and never seems to protest.  What I think my dogs like most about a walk is the fact that they are somewhere they aren’t usually.  I have 3 areas of property with a canine fence perimeter so they have free access and freedom to roam so the “freedom” part of being in the woods or hiking is nothing new to them.  It’s the new smells and adventure that they enjoy - so I let them have it.

As far a pack behavior between the three, none on loose walks or freedom outside - they all just do their on things.  I see more pack behavior in my home, in close quarters than I do when they are outside with plenty of freedom.

ETA:  Even Ceasar lets his dog free on loose leash outside activities.  His dogs are out front, off to the side or behind - he dosen't care.  If you live int he city and need to walk your dog on leash you need to have a dog that "can" walk in a structured manner.  I can also say that River is much more tired after walking by my side on leash at MIL house in Brooklyn then he is after a long walk in our woods.  I beleive it is the challenge on his part of the mental structured walk compared to the free, I am going to romp exercise.    His obdience class do the same thing to him, he is pooped for doing almost nothing!

spiritdogs

Where do people come up with this stuff??? 

Would you like me to provide links?

Walking a dog and leadership 

Training Tips 

There are many, many more. You can Google it! Just because you don't agree with an idea doesn't make it "ridiculous".  

Chuffy

Do teachers go outside with kids at playtime and teach them how to have fun?  No, they just let them run and play and only step in if there is squabbling or dangerous/rough play. 

I didnt ask you if you teach your dog how to have fun, i asked if you have teach your dog to walk next to you?, how do you know a dog does not have fun if is walking next to you since you never have teach him that? 

Chuffy

I don't get much fun out of my dog plodding along next to me. 

Well i do, just like i dont see the fun on woman spending hours at the mall shopping i'm sure they do, also because i apply NILIF, nothing in life is free and that includes the sniffing time, my dog gives me a nice walk next to me and she then can have her time to sniff all she wants 

The program is NOT called "nothing (well just some things) in life are free"

I dont think there is anything more to explain, we have said why we do it that way and its our choice to do it, its only matter of preference (and other things other people dont like to do with their own dogs) and if we continue we are only going to get more: "but why?", "whats the point"? Well we already responded why and whats the point and we are still being asked over and over, i think the only answer that is left is:

Because if works for me and my dog 

espencer

Chuffy

Do teachers go outside with kids at playtime and teach them how to have fun?  No, they just let them run and play and only step in if there is squabbling or dangerous/rough play. 

 

I didnt ask you if you teach your dog how to have fun, i asked if you have teach your dog to walk next to you?, how do you know a dog does not have fun if is walking next to you since you never have teach him that? 

Of course I teach my dogs to walk next to me!  Good grief, there is nothing worse than seeing a dog towing somebody down the street!  When I take the leads off and give the release cue they don't plod along in a straight line, beside me or otherwise!  They meander, they explore, they sniff, they run... they do "doggy things".  Presumably they prefer to do these things?  I'm not going to make them walk right beside me for the sake of it, to "prove" something to them.  I like the lead to be slack and for them to have a degree of freedom even on-lead.  That's what I take them for a walk FOR.  I only ask them to walk beside me if we are crossing a street, negotiating a crowd, something like that...  If another dog approaches I like them to be beside me so that I can quickly step in front of them if I need to.  But it doesn't have to be the whole walk, or even most of the walk.

espencer

Well i do, just like i dont see the fun on woman spending hours at the mall shopping i'm sure they do, also because i apply NILIF, nothing in life is free and that includes the sniffing time, my dog gives me a nice walk next to me and she then can have her time to sniff all she wants 

The program is NOT called "nothing (well just some things) in life are free"

I don't make my dogs "work" for water either.  Generally speaking, I only make them work for priveleges.  Water is not a privelege.  As I said in an earlier post, as far as I am concerned, being allowed to express some natural behaviour is not a privelege - it's a right.  They don't have to earn it, I am obliged to give them the opportunity.  So, there we will just have to part company.

If you think that's what is working so well for you, then the chances are it's making YOU feel in control and confident and THAT has a knock on effect on how the dog responds to you... you might call it "energy".  Perhaps I just feel in control and confident regardless of where the dog is in relation to me or what he is doing? 

Chuffy

I only make them work for priveleges.  Water is not a privelege.

And food is? because i suppose that you make them sit before you feed them

Chuffy

being allowed to express some natural behaviour is not a privelege - it's a right.

And i assume you still dont like them if they jump on guests, bark at midnight, look for food from the table, etc. VERY natural behaviors IMO 

espencer

Chuffy

being allowed to express some natural behaviour is not a privelege - it's a right.

 

And i assume you still dont like them if they jump on guests, bark at midnight, look for food from the table, etc. VERY natural behaviors IMO 

I believe she used the word "some" which does not mean all. And not necessarily the ones you listed.

I'm still wondering where the proof is that the dog seeing you in front translates into them thinking you are a leader of canines. And I'm not being snotty. If it is to be expressed as a statement of fact or observable phenomenon, there should be, somewhere, a scientific link. Scientific studies, including Pryor's ground-breaking work, can show the effect and effectiveness of marker training. Even someone like Leerburg might be able to show that a dog that was hung just short of death doesn't feel like biting you right that instant, especially if the dog is struggling to breath. I guess I'm asking what documentable behavior shows that dogs think that a human walking in front equals leader. According to the show, Dog Genius, dogs actually look at a human's eyes for cues.

ron2

I believe she used the word "some" which does not mean all. And not necessarily the ones you listed

So who's the authority to decide which natural behaviors are a right and which ones are not??

ron2

I guess I'm asking what documentable behavior shows that dogs think that a human walking in front equals leader.

You're looking for scientific proof of something a dog thinks? Think about that.

Pryor's work shows documentable proof of behaviors (something observable).  But I have yet to see any proof of what they're thinking.

IMO, a dog walking in front doesn't NECESSARILY, AUTOMATICALLY mean that they think they're the leader. BUT, if you have a problem dog or if your dog is pulling you down the street or a dog that displays dominance toward you, one thing you can do to HELP is to walk the dog beside or behind you.