Dog Walking - out front or behind?

Chuffy

What about Guide Dogs (Seeing Eye dogs??) ?  They are NEVER walked the "CM way" are they?  They do literally "lead" their handlers/owners in many scenarios.  Can a blind person be an adequate "leader" in the dogs eyes?  Would a blind dog ever take the position of "alpha" in a group?  Whatever the answers, it doesn't stop guide dogs being well behaved and socially acceptable (and it's even MORE important that they are socially acceptable, given their line of work and the number of public places they get taken to).

If you think about it, the work most breeds of dogs were created to perform entails the dog being in front!  Think about it, all hunting dogs, sled dogs, herding dogs, even guard and police dogs.  Thinking about it the only type of dog who would work along side its human would be draft dogs.  So as far as I can tell, the natural state of dogs is most typically in front of the human.

If I meant CM, I'd say CM. Lots of trainers who believe that "leadership fixes everything" (an idea I find preposterous) think that leadership can only be maintained by engaging in a series of petty behaviors, one of which is "never let your dog walk in front of you".  This is a meaningless concept to dogs- take a pack of dogs out in a field and watch them. With mine, the young, energetic, low-ranking dogs are physically out in front, but ARE NOT "leading"- they kept close watch on the high-ranking dogs in the rear, and change course to go where the high-rankers want to go.

from my observations in the past, the primary effect of walking your dog at heel all the time every walk the entire walk is to "shut down" the dog and produce a subdued dog.

mudpuppy

take a pack of dogs out in a field and watch them.

I do this every single day. Twice a day. I never noticed a particular pattern to how they run about. I'll have to keep an eye open for that. They just each seem to go to what interests them. 

mudpuppy

the primary effect of walking your dog at heel all the time every walk the entire walk is to "shut down" the dog and produce a subdued dog.

Hmmm... I guess it's a good thing I have never heard of anyone who advocates this.  

mudpuppy

from my observations in the past, the primary effect of walking your dog at heel all the time every walk the entire walk is to "shut down" the dog and produce a subdued dog.

So according to your statement every time someone is practicing heeling with a dog in a training session they are "shutting the dog down" for a couple minutes? I wonder who wants to have their dog looking at them all the time just like when it happens when you command a heel walk, i dont, she just walks next to me, is my wife "shutting down" every time we walk side by side? thats a interesting question 

Cassidys Mom

My exact words were "that's the impression that I got". I don't disagree that exercise is important, and I also don't disagree that many dog owners fail to exercise their dogs sufficiently, but I thought his insistence of several hours a day being necessary, every day, would turn off most people who simply couldn't do that, for whatever reason. Personally, I think stressing exercise, but in a way that people can actually strive for realistically, would be better. SOME exercise is better than NO exercise. I could easily see people read his book and think "there's no way I can possibly exercise my dog 3 hours a day" (and would HE be able to do it if his day job wasn't dog related?) and just decide not to bother. Just like if people think that in order to exercise themselves they'd have to spend 2 or 3 hours a day in the gym. How many do you suppose would decide that they'll just have to do without exercise because that level of commitment is impossible for them? But if you tell people that the more exercise they do the better, but that at least 20 or 30 minutes a few times a week can beneficial too, they are more likely to aim for that because it's a more attainable goal.

So according to your statement every time someone is practicing heeling with a dog in a training session they are "shutting the dog down" for a couple minutes? I wonder who wants to have their dog looking at them all the time just like when it happens when you command a heel walk, i dont, she just walks next to me,

no, if you actually read my statement, it said "making the dog walk at heel EVERY WALK the dog ever takes, for the entirety of the walk, produces subdued, shut-down dogs". 

The only benefit I see that dogs get from leash-walking is "seeing" the world- which they do via their noses. If you never let them sniff as they please, they get nothing out of the walk. Would be like having someone take you to a museum, put a blind-fold on you, and march you around every day. What benefit would you get out of that?

mudpuppy

The only benefit I see that dogs get from leash-walking is "seeing" the world- which they do via their noses. If you never let them sniff as they please, they get nothing out of the walk. Would be like having someone take you to a museum, put a blind-fold on you, and march you around every day. What benefit would you get out of that?

And do you really need to be watching everything 2 inches away from your eyes while you are walking ? i dont think i need to tell you how powerful a dog's nose is, now, i let my dog sniff the ground but not the whole walk, i'm pretty sure she still can smell whats around without having to have her nose glued to the ground 100% of the time

By the way, like i said before, when i walk with my wife she is all the time next to me, is she shut down? you forgot to answer that question for me from my prior post

One would hope that your wife has a CHOICE in where she walks.  I sure hope you don't ask her to walk a step or two BEHIND you!

Muds observation about the dogs in a field is quite accurate in my experience.  My dogs are pretty equal in their energy levels, despite the age differences, but Tyler is almost always out front.  And the whole bunch of them are close together, sometimes two abreast, but more often, single file.  I do notice on extended walks, or through particularly deep snow, that the lead dog will change more frequently.

MY defination of "leader" doesn't involve a series of petty activities designed to establish or keep establishing myself.  My dogs generally do go through the door first....I prefer it that way.  But, I do ask for a sit first, and that isn't done to "establish my leadership"....that's simply a safety issue.  They NEED to be calm before going out the door so that I don't end up stampeeded by six large dogs.  I also ALWAYS send them down stairs ahead of me.  Again, this is a safety issue for me.  I'm far too clumsy to be accidently bumped into by a dog and go rolling down the stairs....and I've had too much stuff broken and damaged (on my body) already!  I guess,  my defination of leadership is much the same as my defination of Mom....to love them no matter what, to guide, to mold, to teach and encourage, to help them to be the very best that they can be and to take care of all their needs.  I suppose that calling them back to me or asking them to wait when we are out in the woods could be seen as an attempt to control, but I simply think of it as a way to insure their safety.

glenmar

One would hope that your wife has a CHOICE in where she walks.

That wasnt my question

glenmar

I'm far too clumsy to be accidently bumped into by a dog and go rolling down the stairs

Why would they bump you? are they out of control? 

glenmar

MY defination of "leader" doesn't involve a series of petty activities designed to establish or keep establishing myself.  My dogs generally do go through the door first....I prefer it that way.  But, I do ask for a sit first, and that isn't done to "establish my leadership"....that's simply a safety issue. 

Interesting that what other people choose to do to establish leadership are "petty activities" (you picked up real good on that baiting word) and what YOU choose to do is "simply a safety issue".... Not "petty" at all.

glenmar

I suppose that calling them back to me or asking them to wait when we are out in the woods could be seen as an attempt to control

It could also be seen as "petty", but I seriously doubt anyone is going to think or say that. I have too much respect for people's relationship to their dogs and their individual situations to suggest what they do is petty. I don't see the point. Every situation is different.

I hope you don't pick up other bad habits and start saying my dogs are "shut down", too.  

The question was is your wife shut down because she walks beside you.  If you are forcing her, then perhaps she is.  And, no, my dogs aren't out of control going down the stairs...they are BIG and I'm clumsy and don't have the greatest balance so it wouldn't take much more than a wagging tail hitting me to cause me to stumble and fall.  I don't like PEOPLE behind me on the stairs either.  After my neck surgery, my neck was quite literally broken, and I don't care to go through another surgery because I managed to trip over my two left feet.

Carla, I think that you misunderstood me.  I do not find requiring a sit at all petty.  I probably require much the same behaviors as you do from my dogs and I don't consider them to be petty.  Nor do I define leadership in the same way that it was defined earlier.  And yes, calling the dogs back or asking them to wait could be considered petty, but this is one way that I continually reinforce their recall  and their willingness to MIND me in an unleashed situation.

espencer

By the way, like i said before, when i walk with my wife she is all the time next to me, is she shut down? you forgot to answer that question for me from my prior post

What does that have to do with how a DOG feels? I thought we weren't going to anthropomorphize here?  

And I thought Glenda's response to be perfectly relevant. If you insisted on taking your wife for a walk every day whether she wanted to go or not, and took her on a route of your choosing and length that she wasn't interested in and had no input in choosing, made her walk next to or behind you and not check out anything along the route that captured her interest, then YES, I think she'd be mighty unhappy with you. Shut down? Depends on her personality. If it were me, 'shut down' isn't even close to describing how I'd react. Fighting mad perhaps. Highly resistant perhaps.

I just wonder if your dogs know that what you've taught them is for safety reasons and not for petty leadership reasons. I wonder if they care. If they don't care, then who cares? I wonder if they care why they have to sit at the top of the stairs or before they go out the door or whatever. I wonder if my dogs think I'm "petty" LOL Or if they think they're "shut down", as mudpuppy thinks they are. 

Or is it only other people's judgments and hangups about how other people treat their dogs that have them slinging that word around?

I'm not upset with you, glenda, I just thought it was an interesting choice of words.  

glenmar

If you are forcing her, then perhaps she is.

Interesting, i would have to ask her, i could swear that she was fine since she was very talkative and laughing sometimes , i like to think that my dog also enjoys to walk next to me when i ask her, if i never ask her before how would she know that walking next to me is also fun? why a dog has to be having his/her nose stuck into the ground all the time for us humans to consider them "happy"?

Well, I've sure TOLD them enough times that they have to listen to me to stay safe!  Grin!  It should have gotten through their heads by now!  And living with me, I suspect that they might "get it" that I have two left feet and can trip over thin air....that sometimes because of nerve damage my hands quit working and I drop things that no one else does......I *think* that they get that I'm a world class klutz!

If you read what *I* define as leadership, maybe you'll get where I'm coming from with the things I said. 

I'm not judging anyone...truly I'm not.  I was actually "kinda sorta" disagreeing with muds definition of leadership.  I think we ALL have different reasons for doing the things that we do.....mine happens to be my own physical safety.  Remember, I'm the person with the branded right ankle from having a 50 foot drag line wrap around and bite right on into my flesh......and there is STILL a depression there, almost 2 years later that I'm guessing will never come back to the level of the rest of my ankle.