Dog Walking - out front or behind?

Chuffy

The snippet from the web page kind of implies that you need to walk the dog that way so that he doesn't think he is leader, (and "being a pack leader" is central to what he does isn't it?) so what I'm getting is - you need this "Walk" as part of the "pack leader" approach.

I've only watched a handful of his shows, but I did read Cesar's Way, and that's the impression that I got - that dogs need much more exercise (several hours daily according to him), and that should be in the form of ON leash walks, with the dog not ahead of the human, to establish leadership. I agree in his basic concept of dogs getting enough exercise, but I think his requirements are extreme. How many people actually have 2 or 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, 364 days a year, to exercise their dogs in that fashion? Through rain, snow, sleet, 100+ degree temperatures? And I'm not convinced that on leash exercise is sufficient, nor am I convinced that position is all that important. As Suzanne Clothier said in the seminar I attended in March: "Dogs walk ahead of us because humans are too flippin' slow! Either strap on rollerblades and go FASTER, or give your dog permission to walk ahead of you".

 

Dog_ma

When Sasha and I do our off lead hikes through the exciting and exotic suburban fire roads, she wanders all around me. *She* keeps track of me. If she's ahead, she anticipates where I'm going, and if she's wrong she busts tail to get back. Even when she's significantly ahead, she's checking back in and taking her cues from me.

That's exactly what my dogs do. They've both been going to off leash parks weekly from 4 months old or so, and we have no problem keeping them with us. (Well, unless Keefer sees someone tossing around a football, then all bets are off. He's developed a serious "I WANT THAT" thing about big balls like basket, soccer, and footballs. But I digress.... )

 
They decided to take a short cut across the park to get to the swimming area exactly twice. We hid. The freaked out. End of problem. Now all it takes is "ah, ah, this way", and they stay with us until we get there and they can have their fun.
 

Cassidys Mom

Chuffy

The snippet from the web page kind of implies that you need to walk the dog that way so that he doesn't think he is leader, (and "being a pack leader" is central to what he does isn't it?) so what I'm getting is - you need this "Walk" as part of the "pack leader" approach.

 

I've only watched a handful of his shows, but I did read Cesar's Way, and that's the impression that I got - that dogs need much more exercise (several hours daily according to him), and that should be in the form of ON leash walks, with the dog not ahead of the human, to establish leadership. I agree in his basic concept of dogs getting enough exercise, but I think his requirements are extreme. How many people actually have 2 or 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, 364 days a year, to exercise their dogs in that fashion? Through rain, snow, sleet, 100+ degree temperatures? And I'm not convinced that on leash exercise is sufficient, nor am I convinced that position is all that important. As Suzanne Clothier said in the seminar I attended in March: "Dogs walk ahead of us because humans are too flippin' slow! Either strap on rollerblades and go FASTER, or give your dog permission to walk ahead of you".

 

Is that really what CM says in his book?

You know the extreme exercise nobody wants to do .....like when it's really not so comfy for the owner......I have seen that many times......when it's too hot(go early in the morning), too cold, do what what you can do....and I am sure that he refers to folks who don't have enough of a yard to let the dogs exercise.......or living in an apartment...I have a doggie door....and my dogs having access to outside all the time still need their runs.....exercise is very important.....

I'm going to digress a bit here to respond to Carla's earlier post.....

Why should mud, or any of us actually, have to specify that we AREN'T referring to CM when we make a statement?  The automatic assumption that we are seems to be part of the problem in having clear communication.   Every comment is NOT an attack on CM but it seems like some folks ASSUME that it is.

To be clear, I do agree with CM that dogs need plenty of physical exercise.  Do they need several hours daily on lead?  I don't think so.  Do they need it every single day?  Maybe, maybe not.  There are days that my crew do not want to take a romp in the woods.  There are days that they make it VERY clear that they do not want to go out and romp through the snow, that they'd rather take a day off.  *I* take a walk every day.  And they are always invited.  Everyone does not always want to go, and that's ok.  Sometimes they don't even want to walk to the mailbox with me or to get the newspaper.  Not often, but it happesn.  Not being stupid animals, they may not WANT to trudge through a foot of fresh snow on lead when there is no visability because the snow is still falling hard and heavy and the wind is whipping it into a frenzy.    When the weather is really nasty and they are getting a bit antsy, I'll move the cars out of the garage and go out there with them to play fetch, or to do some training in a group.  They might not be getting physical exercise, but they are getting mental exercise.  And when my own exercise can only consist of multiple trips up and down the little road, they aren't interested in keeping me company.  The little road means a leash.....that's not so much fun more than once a day.  Rock solid recall aside, they are NOT going near the busy road off lead.  I won't take that chance.

My dogs will walk where ever they are asked to walked.  There have simply been very FEW occassions where I have told them to let ME go first.  It is very rare for me to not want my dogs out front or beside me.  Behind me just doesn't seem natural to me.

glenmar

Why should mud, or any of us actually, have to specify that we AREN'T referring to CM when we make a statement?

You don't have to. But considering the subject, and that mud (a known CM opponent) was responding to me (a known CM proponent) and considering our past discussions about CM and "leadership" and the fact that CM was mentioned in the first post of the thread (therefore he IS a subject of this thread), AND considering the somewhat sarcastic tone of her post:

mudpuppy

according to certain people, you are supposed to walk your dog at heel ALL of the time, every single walk, for the entire walk, apparently because if the dog gets in front of you for a few minutes you will mysteriously lose your "leadership" status.

I don't think it was unreasonable at all for me to suspect that she MIGHT be talking about CM. And I did say "IF you are talking about CM"... And finally, if she had said who she was talking about, there wouldn't be a question. And if it's NOT CM, I'd like to know who it is.

In fact, who DOES advocate walking your dog at heel ALL of the time, every single walk, for the entire walk, apparently because if the dog gets in front of you for a few minutes you will mysteriously lose your "leadership" status??? Who says that? Who was she talking about? 

If anyone can show me where anyone advocates this, I will rest assured that mud wasn't, in fact, talking about CM, but rather someone else. And my suspicion would be wrong. And if she WAS, by some chance, talking about CM, then I corrected misinformation. Cesar says "Your dog should be beside or behind you during the walk." Not "at heel". Not any of the other restrictive stuff. It's one thing to disagree with someone (I disagree with some things CM does and says) but to spread misinformation is something different.

Like some in your household, Glenda, sometimes one or 2 of mine don't want to go and they don't have to. And when I first got B'asia, she walked behind me. It was very uncomfortable for me. It felt odd. But this was off-leash. It was her choice, so I made myself get comfortable with it. When I take just her for a walk, it's like I'm walking by myself! LOL

But I have honestly never heard of any professional dog people advocating that the dog always walk behind the human. Can anyone share with me who advocates this?? Thank you. 

As I said, MY mind immediately went to that so called trainer in WV who did do the violent alpha roll (slam) just because, who insisted on chokers and hard and frequent leash corrections, and HE taught owners that their dog MUST walk at heel at all times.  And this was to "teach the dog who is boss".  If I remember correctly mud used to be less than a "positive" trainer and used aversives pretty routinely. If that was someone else, my apologies, but if I'm right, she speaks from her own personal experience and perhaps was thinking of a trainer SHE had worked with and not CM.

You and I have disagreed about CM as well....does that mean my comments are also always anti CM?  I honestly didn't see a sarcastic tone in muds posts, and she and I don't agree on everything either.  There are a whole LOT of folks I don't agree with 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean I'm anti, or being sarcastic.

There was just a thread on another dog forum (chazhound) where someone had talked to a trainer and the trainer had told them that if the dog was not walking in heel (on the left side, no less) at all times on a walk, the dog was being dominant. Needless to say, she found another trainer.

Never underestimate the number or crazy people out there calling themselves dog trainers.  

I actually do normally walk my dogs on my left, but because of the fragile state of the right shoulder, not because someone told me I HAD to!  Gosh, that would get complicated!  Sometimes the left side just doesn't work, for whatever reason...such as in town, I want the dogs on the outlawn side and not accidently stepping on some picky persons precious grass......

I'm glad to hear that old fashioned trainers aren't limited to WV!

snownose

Cassidys Mom

Chuffy

The snippet from the web page kind of implies that you need to walk the dog that way so that he doesn't think he is leader, (and "being a pack leader" is central to what he does isn't it?) so what I'm getting is - you need this "Walk" as part of the "pack leader" approach.

 

I've only watched a handful of his shows, but I did read Cesar's Way, and that's the impression that I got - that dogs need much more exercise (several hours daily according to him), and that should be in the form of ON leash walks, with the dog not ahead of the human, to establish leadership. I agree in his basic concept of dogs getting enough exercise, but I think his requirements are extreme. How many people actually have 2 or 3 hours a day, 7 days a week, 364 days a year, to exercise their dogs in that fashion? Through rain, snow, sleet, 100+ degree temperatures? And I'm not convinced that on leash exercise is sufficient, nor am I convinced that position is all that important. As Suzanne Clothier said in the seminar I attended in March: "Dogs walk ahead of us because humans are too flippin' slow! Either strap on rollerblades and go FASTER, or give your dog permission to walk ahead of you".

 

Is that really what CM says in his book?

My exact words were "that's the impression that I got". I don't disagree that exercise is important, and I also don't disagree that many dog owners fail to exercise their dogs sufficiently, but I thought his insistence of several hours a day being necessary, every day, would turn off most people who simply couldn't do that, for whatever reason. Personally, I think stressing exercise, but in a way that people can actually strive for realistically, would be better. SOME exercise is better than NO exercise. I could easily see people read his book and think "there's no way I can possibly exercise my dog 3 hours a day" (and would HE be able to do it if his day job wasn't dog related?) and just decide not to bother. Just like if people think that in order to exercise themselves they'd have to spend 2 or 3 hours a day in the gym. How many do you suppose would decide that they'll just have to do without exercise because that level of commitment is impossible for them? But if you tell people that the more exercise they do the better, but that at least 20 or 30 minutes a few times a week can beneficial too, they are more likely to aim for that because it's a more attainable goal.

I like Glenda's point about what her dogs want too - we don't have snow here and it doesn't get anywhere near as cold as most places, but right now we're having a freaking deluge of rain which is supposed to last all weekend. Not only am I not inclined to take my dogs out for a nice long walk in that, THEY aren't too enthusiastic about going outside either, not even for potties.  

houndlove

There was just a thread on another dog forum (chazhound) where someone had talked to a trainer and the trainer had told them that if the dog was not walking in heel (on the left side, no less) at all times on a walk, the dog was being dominant. Needless to say, she found another trainer.

Good for her - that's ridiculous! What does this so called "trainer" think about agility dogs? You have to be able to work your dog on both sides on an agility course, so walking with your dog at either side so that they're comfortable no matter which side of you they're on is really important.

Cassidys Mom

we don't have snow here and it doesn't get anywhere near as cold as most places, but right now we're having a freaking deluge of rain which is supposed to last all weekend. Not only am I not inclined to take my dogs out for a nice long walk in that, THEY aren't too enthusiastic about going outside either, not even for potties.  

Hey, I feel your pain....we just went throught that last weekend......it rained for days.....the fenced in area had standing water in many places......so, out for a quick potty break....but, when there were breaks in between I took the dogs out for 3 mile runs....they needed it....but, really my youngest GSD/Tanner needed it....for some reason he is running on high octane....

I''m SO glad my dogs aren't high octane! They'll take as much exercise as we'll throw at them, but don't get buggy if they don't get it every day. Cassidy really needed it or she'd drive us crazy, but Dena and Keefer seem pretty content to lay around the house with us and chew their bones or maybe chase each other around the house if they get a wild hair up their butts. It's go, go, go at the park, but they do have an off switch. Yay!

Man are you lucky....that's all I can say....Tanner will actually start whining when he has had too much time in the house.......eeek....

Snow, Jill runs on high octane as well. Probably the fault of whichever parent was the Kelpie! We discovered over Christmas that she can be worn out through means other than chasing kangaroos for 4 hours by playing fetch by standing at the top of a steep hill, throwing the ball down it, and watching her lope up for repeats until she took the ball and lay down with it somewhere so no one could keep throwing it. Of course, an hour later she's ready for another half an hour of running up and down a steep hill. She gets impossible when she doesn't get to run enough. All ditzy and jumpy and won't settle. It's a good thing she lives in a large backyard.

Cassidys Mom

I''m SO glad my dogs aren't high octane! They'll take as much exercise as we'll throw at them, but don't get buggy if they don't get it every day. Cassidy really needed it or she'd drive us crazy, but Dena and Keefer seem pretty content to lay around the house with us and chew their bones or maybe chase each other around the house if they get a wild hair up their butts. It's go, go, go at the park, but they do have an off switch. Yay!

Jack (our lab) is like that, although Sally (our pittie) starts going a little buggy when the weather has not been good for exercising.  Jack is pretty willing to exercise at whatever amount we throw at him, which is a good thing since he cannot have very, very long exercise sessions due to his elbow.