Dog Walking - out front or behind?

I don't want to go down that road, either. But if I do, my dog will be right beside me in a heel! LOL

I'm just correcting a misconception. If you saw on the board someone saying that they didn't clicker-train their dogs because they don't want to have to give treats every time they do a trick, you might step up and let everyone know that this is a misconception and give them the correct information. That's all I'm doing. 

spiritdogs

Can you identify who the "others" are?

That would be anyone who talks about his methods. Including me.

FourIsCompany

I don't want to go down that road, either. But if I do, my dog will be right beside me in a heel! LOL

I'm just correcting a misconception. If you saw on the board someone saying that they didn't clicker-train their dogs because they don't want to have to give treats every time they do a trick, you might step up and let everyone know that this is a misconception and give them the correct information. That's all I'm doing. 

spiritdogs

Can you identify who the "others" are?

 

That would be anyone who talks about his methods. Including me.

That's all fine and dandy, but it is incorrect to assume that because someone disagrees with his methods that they must perforce be laboring under misconceptions.  I have no problem with anyone clearing up misconceptions, but disagreement is not always misconception, although we certainly know that misconceptions abound on both sides of that training fence. 

FourIsCompany

mudpuppy

but according to certain people, you are supposed to walk your dog at heel ALL of the time, every single walk, for the entire walk, apparently because if the dog gets in front of you for a few minutes you will mysteriously lose your "leadership" status.

 

"Certain people", huh? LOL If you're talking about Cesar Millan, that that simply is NOT true. In fact, if you watch this video, you'll see no less than 4 video clips where the dogs (his own and others';) are out in front of him and he actually encourages people to let their dogs pull them on skates. 

Video 

There's also the popular picture of Cesar with his Pit Bull, Daddy, clearly out in front pulling Cesar on in-line skates.

Now, this is important: The reason Cesar encourages other people to go through the door first or have their dog walk beside (and not in front of) them is that these people are having behavioral issues with their dogs and one small thing a person can do to help a dog with behavioral issues is to be a stronger leader by these actions. It helps them.

Probably none of us here ever have to be concerned about "making" our dogs walk beside (instead of in front of) us, because our dogs don't have these behavioral issues like some dogs we see on TV. But if your dogs do (general "you";), you might consider watching a show or two to make sure you know what he's advocating and the reason behind it, before you listen to others, who clearly are perplexed about his methods, talk at length about them.

Taken from the Ceasar Milan website section titles "Mastering the Walk"

"Position matters. Walking in front allows you to be seen as the pack leader. Conversely, if your dog controls you on the walk, he’s the pack leader. You should be the first one out the door and the first one in. Your dog should be beside or behind you during the walk."

This is what he tells people to do, without the disclaimer to consult a professional.  He also advises to use a short leash.  Finally he says you can let you dog sniff or relieve themselves if they have maintained a "proper" state of mind but always to make the time that I consider being a dog shorter than the time on the "Walk."

When we walk on leash, I prefer my dog to be out front or beside purely so I can keep her leash free of her legs! When she's behind me, I can't see if she's stopped or is at the end of her leash or right on my heels, so I can't take up the correct amount of slack. There's also the possibility that if she's behind me, she's chowing down on some cooked chicken bones or something that I didn't notice.

When we are walking off leash, I don't really have a preference. When we hit the roo trails in the bush, she falls in behind me and seems to prefer to be there so she doesn't lose me. If I stand still looking at something, she gets bored and passes me to take the lead, but she doesn't seem as comfortable there. When we were both younger I used to let her chose the way sometimes. I'd stand back and look at her and say "you choose" and follow her lead. At least until she picked a rabbit trail too tight for me!

GoldenAC

Taken from the Ceasar Milan website section titles "Mastering the Walk"

As I said, for people who are having trouble mastering the walk (in other words, if you can't comfortably walk your dog), these tips will help. Many people don't know what to do when their dog controls them on a walk, so he has given ideas to master the walk. If you haven't mastered the walk, these steps can really help.

If you have already mastered the walk and you don't have any problems, then these tips aren't for you.

I'm thinking that some of the problem with our discussions is that there are some who automatically jump to "CM" and think his methods are being bashed.  When I read muds post, my mind did NOT jump to CM, but rather to some old time trainers   As we've established, most of Cesars way isn't new....it's stuff that's been around forever.  My thoughts went immediately to the "trainer" who did the violent alpha roll on pups and insisted that any pup in his class be on a choke chain and be given sharp leash corrections constantly.  My mind didn't even GO to CM, but yet, here he is being defended.

So, maybe mud wasn't thinking of CM either??

I too have seen folks who insist that their dogs walk in a constant heel.  We live in a tiny little village but have an AWESOME civic center with an indoor pool and ice rink, the whole nine yards.  Last spring the village decided to make a walking/bike path from the civic center and on around part of the village.  This is an 8 foot wide paved path that beins and ends there, but is 5 miles long.  We often park there, and walk the dogs to the elementary school for some off leash romping in the nice big fenced playground.  This summer when I had just Theo and Tyler on the path, I met a woman with a beautiful golden who was just struggling so with the dog.  She thought he needed to always be at heel and couldn't believe that I could let the boys walk loose leash and then call them back to me with a single word when needed.  We started walking together a few times a week and when I saw her this weekend, HER dog was loose leash walking, having a ball, and coming right back to her with a single word for a nice heel.  This is an "in town" dog who doesn't get to romp off lead in the woods, but by golly NOW he enjoys his walks.  And, this gal has never heard of CM.....was just following the age old wisdom that when you walk a dog, it has to be in heel.

 If they are on lead, I like them to walk beside me with the lead(s) slack.  If they are off lead I like them out in front of me.

Once, one of my dogs was walking along behind me and after a few paces I found that I had a lead and collar in my hand and no dog.... the dog was several feet behind me sniffing and going at his own pace.  It's just lucky I recalled him and got him back on his lead quickly so that he didn;t step off the pavement under a car or soemthing.

Gotta admit, reading Four's posts and then reading this, I'm "perplexed" now!

GoldenAC

Taken from the Ceasar Milan website section titles "Mastering the Walk"

"Position matters. Walking in front allows you to be seen as the pack leader. Conversely, if your dog controls you on the walk, he’s the pack leader. You should be the first one out the door and the first one in. Your dog should be beside or behind you during the walk."

This is what he tells people to do, without the disclaimer to consult a professional.  He also advises to use a short leash.  Finally he says you can let you dog sniff or relieve themselves if they have maintained a "proper" state of mind but always to make the time that I consider being a dog shorter than the time on the "Walk."

Chuffy

 If they are on lead, I like them to walk beside me with the lead(s) slack.  If they are off lead I like them out in front of me.

Once, one of my dogs was walking along behind me and after a few paces I found that I had a lead and collar in my hand and no dog.... the dog was several feet behind me sniffing and going at his own pace.  It's just lucky I recalled him and got him back on his lead quickly so that he didn;t step off the pavement under a car or soemthing.

Gotta admit, reading Four's posts and then reading this, I'm "perplexed" now!

 

GoldenAC

Taken from the Ceasar Milan website section titles "Mastering the Walk"

"Position matters. Walking in front allows you to be seen as the pack leader. Conversely, if your dog controls you on the walk, he’s the pack leader. You should be the first one out the door and the first one in. Your dog should be beside or behind you during the walk."

This is what he tells people to do, without the disclaimer to consult a professional.  He also advises to use a short leash.  Finally he says you can let you dog sniff or relieve themselves if they have maintained a "proper" state of mind but always to make the time that I consider being a dog shorter than the time on the "Walk."

I think, when it says mastering the walk it basically means people haven't found a way to properly walk their dogs, and the dogs at this point are still problem dogs....you know part of an approach to a better dog if said dog has issues....and basically, lets face it....that's what his show is all about.....problem dogs when other methods have not worked.....and mastering the walk is part of rehabilitation.....

He jogs with his dogs and rollerblades .....and his dogs are out front, behind....or wherever......

I don't enforce "Heel" unless in a close environment with other people or dogs......other than that mine are usually off lead .......

This is from the original post:

stardog85

So, those of you who walk dogs behind you in the CM "way", why and how does this work for you?

glenmar

So, maybe mud wasn't thinking of CM either??

Maybe not. If she had said, we'd all know. And that's why I said IF you're talking about CM.

And I'm not so much defending him as giving another perspective on how to take his advice/methods, etc. If you have a happy environment with your dogs, you don't NEED to even listen to CM. But if you're having behavioral issues (like miserable walks) ONE way to address it is by "mastering the walk" using his methods. It's not the only way and it's not for everyone. I don't walk my dogs the way he suggests, because I have the walk mastered and my dogs aren't pulling me around. But if they did, I'd read through it and see what he had to say.

Chuffy

Gotta admit, reading Four's posts and then reading this, I'm "perplexed" now!

What are you perplexed about? LOL (I used that word because I honestly couldn't think of another one besides "confused" and I thought perplexed sounded less "accusatory";). The fact is, the first post mentioned dogs walking behind you in the CM "way". I'm perplexed about that and it has been mentioned several times but has been ignored. So, I offered that if anyone is confused about his methods, they should find out themselves because there's obviously some misinformation going around.

CM rehabilitates dogs. If your dog is walking in a way that you like, he doesn't need rehabilitation, dies he?  

Here's a thought - perhaps the discipline of getting your dogs to walk behind or alongside you reminds you (generic you) to "be the leader." Maybe the position means squat to the dog, but helps inspire a person who is used to letting a dog walk all over him?

I really don't believe position matters to a dog. When Sasha and I do our off lead hikes through the exciting and exotic suburban fire roads, she wanders all around me. *She* keeps track of me. If she's ahead, she anticipates where I'm going, and if she's wrong she busts tail to get back. Even when she's significantly ahead, she's checking back in and taking her cues from me.

From the episodes of CM I've seen, most owners he works with don't have the basics of dog management down. I think some of what he teaches helps the owner maintain awareness and focus. The dogs usually come around very quickly - it is the people who are having problems.  

My only problem with that advice for people who are having a hard time getting loose leash walking to happen is that it's heavy on the "What" and pretty light on the "How". He tells you what *should* be happening but doesn't really tell you how to get there. There's lots of ways to make a dog walk beside you, not all of them actually designed to teach the dog much of anything (if I use a 1 foot tab leash on a choker collar you bet my dog will be walking next to me, but what am I actually accomplishing?).

 Lot's of people have come here asking for advice on how to improve their dog's walking and I have to say, no one has ever just said, "Make him walk beside or behind you." and left it at that.
 

EDIT: To answer the original question, as long as they keeping with my rules (no pulling me any direction, no just stopping dead, no surfing around, no geting all up in people's yards) I don't care where they walk. We don't have a lot of room on our sidewalks, so we have to change configurations from time to time, to all go single file (I usually go first), or 3-abreast, or the dogs in front, or both dogs on one side or the other. I do like them in front though. I like to see what they are doing. Yes, my dogs are Hoovers, yes, they will eat random food items off the street (and will pick up and examine via their mouths some choice non-food items). I am very glad I saw it when Marlowe found a used tampon on the sidewalk and picked it up, so I could tell him to drop it.

Because while what you see on TV is CM working with problem dogs, I was under the impression that his "way" is a lifestyle with your dog, not a quick fix.  The snippet from the web page kind of implies that you need to walk the dog that way so that he doesn't think he is leader, (and "being a pack leader" is central to what he does isn't it?) so what I'm getting is - you need this "Walk" as part of the "pack leader" approach.  Whereas what I am getting from people in this thread is - this isn't necessary for most dogs.... So hang on (here comes the perplexed bit) - so with most dogs it doesn't MATTER if they see themselves as leader?  Or that the position on the walk is not that important?  Or what? 

What about Guide Dogs (Seeing Eye dogs??) ?  They are NEVER walked the "CM way" are they?  They do literally "lead" their handlers/owners in many scenarios.  Can a blind person be an adequate "leader" in the dogs eyes?  Would a blind dog ever take the position of "alpha" in a group?  Whatever the answers, it doesn't stop guide dogs being well behaved and socially acceptable (and it's even MORE important that they are socially acceptable, given their line of work and the number of public places they get taken to).

Without getting feathers ruffled....establishing leadership doesn't just happen with a dog in "Heel", simple....it's a whole spectrum of things....and yes, one can apply this way of walking as a part of , but it not being the only thing.......as I said....the man himself let's his dogs run loose when in the mountains....

Chuffy

So hang on (here comes the perplexed bit) - so with most dogs it doesn't MATTER if they see themselves as leader?

CM's premise: MANY behavioral problems result because of lack of "leadership" (or whatever you want to call it). In other words, many people don't give their dogs what the dogs need in terms of exercise and/or structure, but give plenty of affection and really kind of "spoil" the dog. Then, when the owner asks something of them (like walk nicely on a lead) the dog says, "Heck no. I'll walk how I want to walk. YOU are the one who needs to change." And the truth is, he's right! The owner needs to change. The owner needs to provide the dog with exercise and structure in order to let the dog know what is expected of him. A dog is much happier when he gets the proper exercise and knows what is expected of him.

Dogs are different. Speaking generally, some dogs, depending on their 'person'ality, see any human being as a leader and never have any behavioral problems. These are generally your more submissive dogs. (That's not to say that submissive dogs never have behavioral problems, I'm speaking generally.) Others, are "not so submissive". And if there's a clear lack of leadership, the dog will fill the void by making the rules. Somebody's got to say how things are done. It's not (as is sometimes said) that every dog is waiting around for that one opportunity to take over the household. That's just silly. But some dogs (like Jaia) are pretty darn pushy and constantly ask, "What's in it for me"? These kind of dogs, without "leadership" (or whatever you want to call it) can be "behaviorally challenged" dogs. They can become a real PITA.

So, it's not about "most dogs", it's just that if a person has a dog who is "behaviorally challenged", there is most likely a need that isn't being met by the owner. And if they provide "leadership" by applying the dreaded "exercise, discipline and affection" model, we usually see these dogs flourish and become MUCH more well-behaved and happy. It's not about cracking a whip as some people seem to think. It's about giving the dog what he needs.

So, should all dogs see their owners as "leaders". Sure. A leader provides for needs and guides those he cares about. That's a good thing. Do all dogs see their owners as leaders? No. Some pee on their owner's leg. Some pull them around on walks. Some BITE their owners. These dogs are not being provided with what they need. And it's up to the owner to step up and take care of (lead) their dog. If you're not having any behavioral issues with your dog, chances are he sees you as the "leader" (in this context)  and knows that you will provide for his needs and take care of him.

Chuffy

Can a blind person be an adequate "leader" in the dogs eyes?

You should know the answer to this bizarre (better than the first word I was thinking of) line of questioning now.