Dog Walking - out front or behind?

For walks on a normal 6' leash, normally I like them to walk beside or ahead of me, like most others. Most times they are ahead, sometimes they are beside. Usually as long as the leash is loose, and they aren't tangling around things, they are allowed to choose their path. If we are walking in close quarters, I prefer to have my dogs beside me. On an off-leash walk, I honestly don't care. I worry more about the general distance away from me than where they are relative to me. So they could be ahead, beside, behind, off to the side.

 I don't get having a dog walking behind you as routine, I think that's silly. But I could see a use for some people to have a general cue for "Get behind me" for different things. I have considered teaching this cue to Gaci and Shimmer for when we move out of home and into city living. I never know when I might be confronted with a situation in which I want to keep my dogs safe, especially with their trust issues, and ask them to step behind me. But it wouldn't be a "walking" thing, just a get behind me and stay there cue.

mudpuppy

I like them out in front so I can see them. I can't imagine what benefit, physical or mental, a dog would get out of walks if the dog is expected to walk at a slow human pace in heel position ALL of the time. Dogs get very little exercise benefit from just walking at a human pace, and unless they are allowed to sniff as they please they don't get much mental stimulation either. My dogs favorite kind of leash walk is to slowly walk out, sniffing everything (mental stimulation), then jog back briskly without stopping (physical exercise).

I agree that walking isn't really a comparable form of exercise, but I don't see how it's not possible for a dog to be mentally stimulated when walks are used for training.  I walk the dogs as a training exercise and my husband runs them for physical exercise.  Kenya would much rather do rally exercises than sniff around.  If I don't ask her to do anything, she simply does nothing, just walks on the cement looking bored.  I often use walks for training different turns, pivots, and heeling patterns so we can proof them in more distracting situations.  I don't see how a dog doing practice for this is not being mentally stimulated. For proper exercise, we do agility, jog with DH, long games of tag or fetch, letting Kenya run loose while I do yard chores, and taking the dogs to large fields where they chase each other and wrestle.  My dogs play off lead (well, Coke is on a long lead unless the area is fence) every day.  For us, walks ARE about training and mental stimulation.  I give Kenya "free time" to sniff around the yard (we have a very large yard that also has a foresty area and an uncut field area), but often she wanders back to me because she would rather train or play a game with me than do something on her own.  Often, Kenya is far more tired after an hour long walk at my pace working on training than she is after an hour and a half of chasing Coke.  I don't think one is a substitute for the other - dogs need both - but a walk doesn't have to be only about the dog getting exercise and sniffing around. 

mudpuppy

I can't imagine what benefit, physical or mental, a dog would get out of walks if the dog is expected to walk at a slow human pace in heel position ALL of the time.

ALL the time? No, I can't imagine that would be much good. But even if they're out in front of you, if they're on a leash, they're walking at human pace. And what a dog gets from walking at a heel (sometimes) is discipline, training and bonding with the human. That's a good thing. The idea of walking at a heel isn't to get exercise. It's training, as Liesje said.

Regarding sniffing, when my DH walks them, he goes one way in a heel, and then goes into "sniffing mode" on the way back.  

I'm curious about all the responses that say they want their dogs out front so they can see what they're doing. I'm wondering... What might they be doing?

I think walking behind can be a good thing, too, especially when you're hiking out in the wilderness. The dogs following the human is a good pattern. They "'follow the leader". We have wild animals here and I would want to be the one to come across a rattlesnake, javelina or other wild animal before the dogs do.

So, I think it all depends on the needs and safety of the dog and human. Once again, it depends on the situation.  

FourIsCompany

I'm wondering... What might they be doing?

For me, it's not so much a matter of what they might be doing, but moreso that I simply get an inherent pleasure out of watching my dogs be happy dogs. Especially when one works with "damaged" or "special needs" dogs, like I do, when you get to see dogs out and about doing their thing, and being utterly happy about it, stress-free, it makes me happy too.

What's more important for me, though, and the main reason, is that having my dogs beside and/or ahead of me allows me to watch the environment that is going on around them. I can see if somebody is approaching me or the dogs. If my dogs are walking behind me, I cannot see if something might spring up behind me or a person approaches to try to interact with the dogs. So keeping them in my line of sight at all times in public, is for their safety and security and wellbeing, as a negative situation with a stranger could inhibit the work we have done together, as my dogs trust that I will keep them safe.

FourIsCompany

The dogs following the human is a good pattern. They "'follow the leader".

It's a good pattern if you follow the leadership principle. For those of us who don't, say.....me......lol.........I don't wish to appear or act as a leader with my dogs, therefore I don't wish for them to follow me. Whether my dogs are in front of, behind, or beside me, they'll still listen to my requests, so it's irrelevant for me to have them follow.

In fact, if we are talking about possible dangers, I actually have better trust in my dogs to alert me to things long before we approach them, better than I trust myself to notice certain things/animals before we approach them. I have the keen eyesight from behind to look ahead and farther, and from a taller angle (granted, I'm not exactly tall..hehe....), and they have the sense of smell and hearing that I don't have, and if they are behind me, I can't very well see if they are alerting to something. But then again, I live somewhere where there are no poisonous animals, and our largest wild animal is a coyote (we don't even have deer!), so I have very little worry of coming upon anything truly dangerous.

It's just easier, and most efficient, IME, to observe your animals and call them off if something occurs, when you can walk in the back and see them in front of you. But of course that's just how I view it, others will vary.

FourIsCompany

I'm curious about all the responses that say they want their dogs out front so they can see what they're doing. I'm wondering... What might they be doing?

Can't speak for everyone else but I have to have mine right in front. I do call for a heel here and there (when people are around) but my dogs are disabled and having them in front is the only way for me to observe (and then) manage their pain level.

And I don't think it makes them feel like leaders at all. It's just the way we have to work things given our situation. They heel immediately when I ask them to and stop and wait when I ask them to, so it's all good. (And necessary.)

I put Kenya out in front on a loose lead a lot of the time because she is a visual deterrent for me.  No one bugs me when I have a well-trained German Shepherd walking with purpose and focus two steps ahead of me .  I walk almost exclusively in urban areas.  Having Kenya out in front does not make her a leader.  She always walks on a loose lead and walks in front when told to, just as she will walk at heel when told to, or do a formal heel when told to.

mudpuppy

I like them out in front so I can see them. I can't imagine what benefit, physical or mental, a dog would get out of walks if the dog is expected to walk at a slow human pace in heel position ALL of the time. Dogs get very little exercise benefit from just walking at a human pace, and unless they are allowed to sniff as they please they don't get much mental stimulation either. My dogs favorite kind of leash walk is to slowly walk out, sniffing everything (mental stimulation), then jog back briskly without stopping (physical exercise).

When a dog is on a leash they are walking at a human pace whether they are walking a couple steps in front or next to you.  In my experience it is actually quite mentally tiring for a dog to have to walk next to the person, making sure they pay attention to what is going on.  With our dogs there is a difference between just walking next to us (this can vary from slightly behind some days to a bit in front but still to the side) and actually walking in a heel.  Most of the walk is spent next to us, with a smaller amount of time spent in a heel. 

nfowler

my dogs are disabled and having them in front is the only way for me to observe (and then) manage their pain level.

That's a really good reason to have them in front.

nfowler

And I don't think it makes them feel like leaders at all

I don't think that, in itself "makes" them feel like leaders, either, necessarily. And that's not what I said. If a dog is well-behaved on a leash, I don't think it matters where he walks. But I do believe that if a dog is dragging a person all around on a leash, he feels like the leader. Walking in front doesn't MAKE him the leader, but if he's walking the person, then he IS the leader. I always think in terms of large powerful dogs, for some reason... LOL

Let me say this....when my dogs are off lead having a romp in the woods, quite often I will be quiet and say absolutely nothing. If THEY felt that they were the leaders I don't believe that they would stop at the end of the imaginary line and look back at me to make sure I'm still there.  Or reach that point and come trotting back.  Or even just stop and wait for me to catch up.  Or immediately respond when I tell them to "stay on the trail" or "not that way" when they come to a turning point.

Off lead, I want to be able to see exactly where everyone is and what they are doing, and who or what might be in their line of sight.  I frequently call them off wildlife with a simple "leave it" before they ever began to pursue.  On lead is almost always in town.  I might throw a lead on someone when I walk out to get the newspaper or the mail, just to keep leash manners fresh, but mostly the real leash walking is in town.  If the dogs are behind me, and say someone needs to potty, I'm not going to know that and will end up hitting the end of the lead myself.....with a smaller dog, I might be dragging them while they try to pee, and I don't like that one bit. I also can't SEE what's approaching as I can when they are beside or ahead of me.  Despite leash laws there ARE loose dogs in town.  There are sometimes wierd looking folks that can startle them and I want to see them first.  Also, in our little village, the snowmobile trail goes right THROUGH the town and sometimes we'll encounter a group of those snarling beasts coming right along the sidewalk.  I surely don't want to be surprised by a loose dog or human or a child approaching from the rear and grabbing hold of one of my dogs.  If they are in front of me, I can see everything and react to it before THEY can.  And, keep in mind, I often walk SIX very large dogs by myself.  Their combined weight far exceeds mine, and the strength of just ONE of them is greater than mine.

FourIsCompany

But I do believe that if a dog is dragging a person all around on a leash, he feels like the leader.

This is not to necessarily dispute you, but to provide simply another viewpoint, a different perspective, if you will.

Rather than call such a dog a leader, is it not possible to simply explain that this dog is simply being a perfectly normal dog, that has not yet understood what walking on a leash is all about?

This sounds to me simply like a dog that is eager to get to its destination, at a dog's pace (rather than a human's), and has no understanding that it would be most efficient, and often less aversive (even pulling on a flat collar can injure tracheas as most know), to walk nicely beside the handler. Once dogs learn this through teaching (actually showing the dog what you like - and not starting out on the boardwalk, but in a quiet area) they tend to adapt quite well, the only difference is the amount of prior reinforcement and practice the dog has had in pulling. If we talk about what he "feels", chances are he feels simply that he's got to teach this human to walk faster, as we're such slow animals! Most people don't realize (usually those with pulling dogs!) that walking nicely on a leash is something that has to be consciously taught to most dogs, it's not something that comes naturally to dogs, there's nothing equivalent to "walk beside another being in a relative position" in the dog world.

I like to refer back to a neat concept - it takes two to pull, and ultimately the human is the one at fault, as they are applying all the resistance needed to be able to pull! It is humans that teach dogs to pull. If the human didn't interfere, the dog would never be a puller. Humans set them up, from the beginning, to be pulling animals, and it happens by simple reinforcement and lack of direction from person. And it happens from day one, that day you bring home a puppy and slap on the leash, and control your puppy's movements by pulling on the leash and directing where it goes. It is much easier if we just set them up for success in the beginning and teach them what it is we want.

Kim_MacMillan

Rather than call such a dog a leader, is it not possible to simply explain that this dog is simply being a perfectly normal dog, that has not yet understood what walking on a leash is all about?

Absolutely! Call it whatever you want. It's the same idea. I just use a lot fewer words. Saying the dog is "leading" or "the leader" isn't some sort of insult or implication of fault on anyone's part. It's just a statement of non-judgmental fact. He's leading. Nobody's "bad" or "at fault". He's still a good doggy! And he's not trying to take over the household or be dominant or any of those other negative thoughts that come into people's mind when the "leader" word comes up.

Kim_MacMillan

chances are he feels simply that he's got to teach this human to walk faster

LOL Exactly!  

ALL the time? No, I can't imagine that would be much good. But even if they're out in front of you, if they're on a leash, they're walking at human pace. And what a dog gets from walking at a heel (sometimes) is discipline, training and bonding with the human. That's a good thing. The idea of walking at a heel isn't to get exercise. It's training, as Liesje said.

I agree- heel work is great mental exercise and training-  but according to certain people, you are supposed to walk your dog at heel ALL of the time, every single walk, for the entire walk, apparently because if the dog gets in front of you for a few minutes you will mysteriously lose your "leadership" status. We often meet this lady forcing her GSD to heel in a backpack every walk, the entire walk, and the dog is clearly very frustrated and getting more so as the months pass. 

 I rarely walk dogs on leash because I don't see that they get much benefit from it. They like to get out and sniff stuff and see new places, sure, but that's the only benefit. Seriously, I think we could walk on leash all day and when we got home the dogs would ask "when are we really going to get some exercise?"  I know it's a popular activity and often recommended, but I think one's time is better spent getting the dog to run somehow, and doing training work, simultaneously or not.  

As to dogs dragging their owners around on leash, I don't think that has anything to do with 'leadership" or lack thereof- the owner has just accidently taught the dog that if he pulls, he gets to go where he wants to go faster.

FourIsCompany

Absolutely! Call it whatever you want. It's the same idea.

I wasn't sure it was. If you just mean leader in the sense of "happens to be the one in front", like in the game "follow the leader", then sure, they are the same.

But if you meant leadership in the sense of the energy/aura/concept of hierarchy, then they aren't the same, no. That is more abstract that means "the dog is walking beside me because I am in charge and am in control and I am his leader", whereas I framed it more of "let's work together to make this walk work well, what is required to make this slower pace and position worthwhile to you?".

FourIsCompany

And he's not trying to take over the household or be dominant or any of those other negative thoughts that come into people's mind when the "leader" word comes up.

Again, it depends on your use of the word leader. Some people would look at it that way, when sayign that a dog is taking the leadership position, akin to alpha/benevolent leader/etc. Which is why I presented another perspective, as I wasn't sure what you meant, so there would be no confusion 

mudpuppy

but according to certain people, you are supposed to walk your dog at heel ALL of the time, every single walk, for the entire walk, apparently because if the dog gets in front of you for a few minutes you will mysteriously lose your "leadership" status.

"Certain people", huh? LOL If you're talking about Cesar Millan, that that simply is NOT true. In fact, if you watch this video, you'll see no less than 4 video clips where the dogs (his own and others';) are out in front of him and he actually encourages people to let their dogs pull them on skates. 

Video 

There's also the popular picture of Cesar with his Pit Bull, Daddy, clearly out in front pulling Cesar on in-line skates.

Now, this is important: The reason Cesar encourages other people to go through the door first or have their dog walk beside (and not in front of) them is that these people are having behavioral issues with their dogs and one small thing a person can do to help a dog with behavioral issues is to be a stronger leader by these actions. It helps them.

Probably none of us here ever have to be concerned about "making" our dogs walk beside (instead of in front of) us, because our dogs don't have these behavioral issues like some dogs we see on TV. But if your dogs do (general "you";), you might consider watching a show or two to make sure you know what he's advocating and the reason behind it, before you listen to others, who clearly are perplexed about his methods, talk at length about them.

FourIsCompany

Probably none of us here ever have to be concerned about "making" our dogs walk beside (instead of in front of) us, because our dogs don't have these behavioral issues like some dogs we see on TV. But if your dogs do (general "you";), you might consider watching a show or two to make sure you know what he's advocating and the reason behind it, before you listen to others, who clearly are perplexed about his methods, talk at length about them.

So, we're going down that road again, are we?  Can you identify who the "others" are?  I, for one, am neither unaware of what he advocates, or "perplexed" by it, and certainly far less unaware and perplexed than a lot of people here are about clicker training.  But, IMO, watching a TV show is not going to make anyone aware of the complexities of dog behavior problems or how to solve them.  Even CM says call a professional.