Pack Rules

If it is true then how can a pack ever form?

DPU, I think in nature the only way a pack ever forms is by a male and a female mating and having a litter. This business of adult dogs accepting other adults into their family is very abnormal, and one that only happens because most dogs have been selected by human breeding interference to behave like puppies- and some of the so-called "primitive" breeds like akitas don't do that as much as other breeds, say labradors or coonhounds. In Boitino's study of free-living dogs, new dogs were generally only recruited into the group after half of a breeding pair died and a new mate was selected.

FourIsCompany

ron2

I've been told by those who rescue and have more than one dog that my one dog one cat experience doesn't count.

 

To be fair, I think they were talking in terms of you observing "pack dynamics". In other words, to me, having one dog and one cat doesn't qualify as being in charge of a pack of dogs. In fact, even having 2 dogs is nothing like having 3 or 4 as far as observation of "pack dynamics" (There's a thread on this). It's been established that humans aren't dogs. but I happen to believe that a human CAN BE (and should be) a pack leader. If he has one dog or 30. But having one dog and one cat, in my opinion, doesn't give a human the opportunity to address dog interactions.

Ron, in case you were thinking of me when making your statement.....then I have to agree with what Carla wrote.....I have two cats......and as much as they are around the dogs the cats do not interact with the dogs as dogs do with dogs......but, I think we covered that already.....

rare_bear

I tend to think that a good way to test to see if you have a pack is to simply go on a walk without leases with your dog(s). If they stick with you and do not run away forever, you probably have a pack.

I am not so sure that domestic cats can be considered to be part of a pack. Do the test above to see. I do think tat cats are highly independant and therefore, it might be good to consider them to just be "members of the family" so to speak.

Oh my goodness, I have a pack that includes a cat!  Not only does our cat Leo wrestle with our smaller dog Duffy (real you bite me, I bite you wrestling) but he also goes for off-leash walk with us.  We will walk for about 3/4 of a mile with the cat about 10 feet behind us.  The dogs think the cat walk too slow.  Leo will ambush the dogs when we are out-hiding in the tall grass than leaping on the dogs when they walk past. 

None of my cats would be able to keep up when romping through the woods ....off leash no less....and my cats don't usually run through the dog door to have outside activities.....like heavy play.....

I would like to see a cat be part of heavy play when four dogs each weighing over 65lbs.run and wrestle .....as a matter of fact....the cats scram when the dogs charge through the house to bark at the outside world....

FourIsCompany

I think it depends on what we mean here when we say how difficult it is for a new member to enter an established pack. DPU, how do you introduce a new member? If not done correctly (with respect to the established pack and the newcomer), there can be problems. Do you just bring a new member into the house?

I know Cesar just walks the new member into his courtyard and I'm always amazed at how well it goes. I can't say I'm as adept at new-dog introductions as he is.  

I have never seen how CM does it but my method may be similar.  Basically I establish a bond with the new dog.  I lead the dog into my backyard and the dog is given an opportunity to get a feel of the layout of the yard, you know hiding places.  The dog also smells the other dogs and also hears the other dogs in the house.  I introduce the pack in tiers with the longest residence first and then fosters, depending on how long they have been with me.  First all dogs sniff or nose touch the new dog through a crack in the door.  Then I flood.  I then watch for signs of aggression and I am prepared to intercept the aggression.  My only wild card is the new dog's behavior.  I know exactly how my dogs will react to a new dog.  I have lots of experience with this and I have the help of a truly stable and calm pack.  I do not recommend this to anyone else.

mudpuppy

I don't have any altercations with my dogs.

LOL Okay. But if my dogs want to eat what's on my plate, or on the table or on the counter or each other's food, I win. If they want go outdoors and run free around the neighborhood, I win. If they want to hurt each other, bring sticks the house, steal each others' bones, I win. I don't mean I'm down on the floor fighting with them.

I do not consider myself to be "alpha".

That's fine. I don't really care what you or anyone considers themselves to be. But when I say that I'm alpha here, I always get a bunch of flack about it.

DPU

I have never seen how CM does it but my method may be similar. 

He just leads the new dog into the yard filled with 35 dogs! His pack is stable and highly influence the new dog. It's really amazing. Sometimes he has aggression but he handles it immediately and it all works out. I find it amazing. Because no matter how stable my pack is, if I brought an adult dog into the house cold turkey, I'm pretty sure my dogs would throw a fit! LOL  But that's my failing, not the dogs'.

Jaia has chased a pit bull off our property several times now, once when he was about 6 months old. But that's his job.

 I don't have a dog pack, but I do have a family unit that Sasha recognizes as her own. She has a high pack drive, and it is obvious that she includes the three grandparents in her "pack," as well as a good friend who lived with us for a while. She greets them all like she greets my husband or me.

I don't have a clue about how domestic dogs will interact if left to run wild, but I find it amusing that my family (very loosely) resembles a wolf pack. There is a breeding pair, and "family" of people, dog/s, and cats. Sasha loves, loves, loves babies. She takes responsibility to watch over babies. No, I don't think we're really a wolf pack or a dog pack or anything but a family with a mom who is kooky for animals. But I could totally see Sasha as the auntie/big sister in a wolf pack, helping out with the pups.

Vivdogz

Does anyone know the origin of 'Pack Rules' and who founded them and applied them to dogs?

Thanks!  Viv

Belper, Derbyshire, UK

Just by chance my sister-in-law, who adopted an adult dog last week who turns out to be dog aggressive, was given a copy of Paul Loeb's "Complete Book of Dog Training" by a friend.  This book, which was published in 1974 uses the wolf-pack model as a basis for dog training and does argue that the human needs to be the dominant member or else the dogs will take over.  It also goes into the idea of feral dog packs terrorizing Long Island.  Does anyone know if there was a problem with feral dogs there in the seventies?

In 1998 Loeb wrote "Smarter Than You Think: a Revolutionary Approach to Teaching and Understanding your Dog in Just a Few Hours" where he also relied on pack theory.

The other early popularizer of the "pack rules" method seems to be the Monks of New Skete in their book "How to be Your Dogs Best Friend" published in 1978.

snownose

Ron, in case you were thinking of me when making your statement.....then I have to agree with what Carla wrote.....I have two cats......and as much as they are around the dogs the cats do not interact with the dogs as dogs do with dogs......but, I think we covered that already.....

After I wrote that reply, I realized it might have sounded snarky, which was not my intent. As you and Carla have pointed out, yet again, my one dog and one cat do not make a pack, precisely because the pack dynamics involved were dog to dog. Therefore, how can a human be part of the pack if the human is not a dog? And if a human can't be part of the pack because of not being a dog, then why try to be alpha which, as Mudpuppy and L. David Mech point out, usually refers to the breeding pair, as most traditional wolf packs are families?

That is either a non-canine can be part of the pack or it cannot. I don't see anything magical about a human that makes them more able to be in the pack than a feline. In fact, I'm using the logic of your (in general) statements.

If a pack can only form between dogs, then not even a human can be part of the pack. OTOH, dogs do bond to humans more than any other canid.

Since I have only one dog and one cat, my comments on multiple dogs in a pack are considered baseless.

Also, I mentioned rescue because, as you and DPU point out, that seems to add an extra dynamic in comparison to a lifelong group of pets.

Yes, I think I have mentioned that when being involved in rescue, and introducing new dogs to a pack, the pack dynamics change each time.....there is still me....and then another dog who is higher than the rest.....that would be Rumour......the rest fit in and stay that way until another rescue is introduced.....but, you know already how dogs try to fit in and try to find their place......it is up to me to keep things in good shape, so no fights break out......

Please, understand.....in no way am I taking away from your experience what Shadow and Jade have.....

As Carla mentioned....use any word that makes you feel comfortable when it comes to being in charge.....you might not like packleader....you are free to use any description you like

snownose

you are free to use any description you like

Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for dinner.

ron2

snownose

you are free to use any description you like

 

Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for dinner.

 

Ron, you're late for lunch.

I prefer Patricia McConnell's suggestion that I be a "benevolent leader".  That suggests that I am in control, but I don't have to be unpleasant about it.

spiritdogs

 

ron2

snownose

you are free to use any description you like

 

Call me anything you want. Just don't call me late for dinner.

 

 

 

Ron, you're late for lunch.

I prefer Patricia McConnell's suggestion that I be a "benevolent leader".  That suggests that I am in control, but I don't have to be unpleasant about it.

that sounds like her [;D] i like Patricia a lot..

i have read a few books, watched CM, and some others(Pat OConnell among them), seen how they do it... honestly i've come to the conclusion that dogs are like people in that not every one thinks alike.... dogs are smart and adaptable... thats why they chose "bondage" as opposed to starving to death in the wilderness many moons ago. who ever, or what ever, the first dogs happened to be.. out casts? old and weak ex alpha, abandoned, stolen, or orphaned pup? something in their minds had an inkling for survival and they did what was necessary to insure that survival. its MY own opinion that .. like some say in regards to breeding for certain traits or temperament.. these first dogs had a temperament that told them to remain pliable and obedient because that meant survival.... and why not? why cant that trait be bred into dogs and expounded upon with each generation? just like some dogs are better at herding, hunting, and guarding... so it doesnt surprise ME that wolves would be different from dogs because dogs have been selectively bred to be manipulated... and wolves have NOT. but instincts remain! even humans have instincts... and how long have we been "civilised"? we still have brain farts and react on impulses even we cant explain.

for my own training purposes... yes i am the alpha, the leader, head honcho, gal in charge, the boss lady.... my dogs know this right off the bat - the cat is taking some convincing but he's coming around to the idea  the way my husband treats animals is contrasting to how i treat them. he thinks its personal when the cat pees in the laundry basket... he also thinks its personal when the dog runs from the other end of the room straight for him as he's walking only to be stepped upon. he thinks the dog did it on purpose to trip him. he wants to think that animals have a higher thinking level, like humans, and he wont listen to me when i try to explain how it REALLY works. but his experience with animals isnt the same as my own. i cant fault him for that.. he was raised old school..that you rub their nose in their pee, smack'em with a news paper, everything you read in those musky old dog training books from the 1950's.... but he's only ever actually owned ONE dog. sure he does have a way with animals (and he gets cocky about that too...) but when it comes down to facts and reality.. the poor boy doesnt have a clue! i cant convinced him that animals do NOT think like people and neither should they be treated like people!
i wont say they're DUMBER or deserve less respect than people... but i will say their agenda and ours are similar but not the same. i've literally "lived" with my dogs.. when i was a kid my dogs were my friends and only companions for many many years. i can think "DOG" better than i can think "HUMAN" .... i can read body language and tones in both species better than i can understand the words coming out of a humans mouth, or whats written on this screen. So in my travels as an actual "dog"person i have noticed there is no one set method for training. its all about understanding THAT individual.. and i dont care what any book or pro. trainer says... this is what i have learned, and i am STILL learning.. and probably my number one reason why i only lurk in this section of the forum... i wont doubt that ALL of these methods work... whether its the pack theory or what have you... i have no doubts that my dogs would function just as well with any other method you throw at them..  each of my dogs today all responds to a different method and tone anyway.... why? because two of them were both over the age of one year when i got them. and sure i owned Amber for three years since puppyhood... but there is also a three year gap in our relationship and she isnt the same dog anymore. so i've discovered all by myself( with no help from any book or trainer) that rotating a dog from one home to another and allowing different people to make their impression on it can make it all the more confusing and difficult for them to be trained. (again, thats what i have seen for myself in my own world) raising them from a puppy in a consistent household ... you could use any method you jolly well please and still get good results..

i have to laugh at comments about CM being overly harsh on dogs while training.... tell you what... i think dogs are harsh on each other when setting up their own boundaries and limitations... so are horses... if some cowboy went out and kicked his horse because it bit him he would get reamed up one side and down the other... but if that same horse bites a member of his herd.. he's gonna get kicked! and harder! and probably more than once, and bitten for good measure. NO I AM NOT CONDONING THE HITTING OF ANIMALS. i am pointing out that a few individuals out there OBSERVED how these animals treat each other.. so the applied those methods to their own animals and they liked the results.. they feel its more on that animals level of thinking.. and who could blame them for making that connection?

anyway i had to add my two cents... dont bother ripping it up either because i'm going back into lurk mode here  

spiritdogs

Ron, you're late for lunch

Never.

spiritdogs

I prefer Patricia McConnell's suggestion that I be a "benevolent leader".  That suggests that I am in control, but I don't have to be unpleasant about it.

If anything, that is what I prefer to think of as my position.

And, again, I appreciate others not reading the wrong thing into my statements and simply discussing the issue at hand.

click - Godiva Chocolate.

DumDog, what a great post! Bravo! I'm sure glad you came out of lurk mode to post your position.

The more I study my pack, the more I realize that I can learn more from them - than ANY book or TV show - about who they are and the best way to deal with them. What I know and use today with my dogs, I didn't get from anyone else but them, and that makes sense and sounds right to me.