Pack Rules

Vivdogz

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof.  The dogs may form a pack with their own species, but from my readings dogs are conspecific and do not form packs with any other animal.

 And I disagree wholeheartedly with Cesar Millan's methods.

Viv

LGD's form a "pack" or primary bond with their herd. Obviously they are not part of a group pf dogs living under one roof, and given options a dog will normally bond to other dogs rather than livestock, but it is interesting that in the absence of more attractive options, dogs will bond very strongly to other species.  

Vivdogz

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof.

I wonder why you didn't just say that in the first place...  

What makes me not part of my pack? I'm a different species, yes, but is that the only thing that makes it so I'm not part of their pack? I'm pretty sure my dogs don't think I'm a dog (although I am not 100% sure). But I'm not sure I buy the idea that dogs only form packs with other dogs...  

Interspecies "Families"   Among them, a dog adopts 4 baby squirrels. Think she considers them her pack? A dog nurses 2 tigers... Are they her pack members? 

Come to think of it. I'm very curious why you think dogs don't form packs with other species... What evidence is there of that? If I have a 2 dogs and 3 cats and they all sleep together, eat together and play together, what makes them NOT a pack?

Vivdogz

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof...

 And I disagree wholeheartedly with Cesar Millan's methods.

Viv

Okay...LOL!

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Great post Carla! (we posted at the same time)

Dogs are exceptional in their natural abilities to bond with humans and other species as part of their social group, pack, or family. I've found it doesn't matter that we are not dogs. They still read us with a dog's mind and pick up cues to danger, food and water sources, and recognition of who is a friend, foe, food, of no concern, etc...as they would from another dog when they live with us as family members.

From everything I've witnessed personally (in my 51 years), I'd say dogs are definately a bilingual species when it comes to living with humans. It always amazes me how much they watch us and learn our facial expressions, body language, and how we use our eyes. Watching Cesar's use of eye contact, body positioning, verbal tone, posture, and direct communication is a great learning experience for those who understand what's going on and enjoy directly communicating with these highly intelligent and social beings.

And for those who don't, there are other ways to learn by studying how their own behavior impacts their dogs or embracing a belief system which makes sense to them...the goal in the end being a stable, balanced, happy dog who is a safe member of society and welcomed anywhere.

spiritdogs

Dogs do not accept new "pack members" by default.  As we have seen on this forum, there are times when resident dogs want nothing to do with the "intruder" and cannot be persuaded to tolerate the new dog.  Sometimes, they do accept a new dog.  But, when there is one dog in the group that doesn't, that dog tends to keep the same attitude and is not necessarily swayed by either human or canine intervention. 

How can this be true?  If it is true then how can a pack ever form?  To be fair, on this forum we have mainly seen one resident dog that was introduced to one newcomer. There are a lot of uncertainties in a one on one meeting with under confidence and over confidence coming into play. I always introduce my core pack to a one new dog.  I have introduced my core pack to a couple of  2 dog packs.  What I observe is my pack has high confidence while the new dog recognizes this power and wants to integrate.  Yes, every now and then one of the pack members mopes but eventually gets over it but it does not stop the integration.  I do believe the one dog in the group that does not accept the new member will need more time.

DPU

How can this be true?  If it is true then how can a pack ever form?  To be fair, on this forum we have mainly seen one resident dog that was introduced to one newcomer. There are a lot of uncertainties in a one on one meeting with under confidence and over confidence coming into play. I always introduce my core pack to a one new dog.  I have introduced my core pack to a couple of  2 dog packs.  What I observe is my pack has high confidence while the new dog recognizes this power and wants to integrate.  Yes, every now and then one of the pack members mopes but eventually gets over it but it does not stop the integration.  I do believe the one dog in the group that does not accept the new member will need more time.

I agree, most of the times if members of the pack do not accept somebody is because the human has let the pack setting its own rules, if the human teaches the pack that the rules they have to follow are the human's rules then the pack will accept the new member easily 

I'm probably pretty late in this but here goes....

 Carla:  The source you cited is for AFRICAN WILD DOGS.  Not feral dogs.  Two completely different species and two completely different social orders.

FourIsCompany

Also, if you would like to more narrowly define the term "free-living dogs", again, be my guest. But that is not going to change the fact that many Canids form packs.

Certainly I'll take that challenge:

Free-living dogs in the sense that was originally referred to means:  Domesticated dogs living without direct ownership, control, or other hindrances associated with humans.  A former companion animal that has either escaped, ran away, or was abandoned.

Free-living packs of  African Wild Dogs are: a population of African Wild Dogs that lives in the wild, possibly on a game preserve, but not in an enclosure, and without any human interference.

I don't know why that was hard to understand. 

DPU

I assume that since dogs are social animals, the pack will by default accept a new member.  But I am wondering what does that acceptance mean.  And what about if the majority accept but there is one loner who resist?

Dogs are accepting only because they have been bred to be neotenic, meaning they stay puppy-like for almost the entirety of their lives.  There are certain breeds that aren't as accepting of newcomers as others.  My breed in particular is less accepting of newcomers than most, even when socialized extensively as puppies.

With reference to the question about the "one loner who resist(s)?" I think it depends upon the status and influence that the particular loner has upon the rest of the group, as well as the actions of the non-acceptance.    

How can a human be part of a dog pack? I've been told by those who rescue and have more than one dog that my one dog one cat experience doesn't count. So, if my dog can't accept a cat as part of his pack, he can't accept me. This in spite of knowing of a cat that was strayed and finished nursing on a dog mother, grew up living with dogs and always barked, like a dog. Nope, can't happen. People who rescue and have more than one dog have said so.

ron2

How can a human be part of a dog pack? I've been told by those who rescue and have more than one dog that my one dog one cat experience doesn't count. So, if my dog can't accept a cat as part of his pack, he can't accept me.

How do you know your dog-cat-human relationship isn't based on the Stockholm Syndrome or the Patti Heart Syndrone.   Bonding is what makes a pack either within species or interspecies.  Don't you think there are different types of bonds or emotional attachments?   I am interested in the dog to dog bond which has to be the basis for the group establishing pack rules which should be different from the human-dog pack..

With each new foster that comes here, I witness the very first thing the dog does is try to escape and carefully checks out the property for that opportunity.

I think it depends on what we mean here when we say how difficult it is for a new member to enter an established pack. DPU, how do you introduce a new member? If not done correctly (with respect to the established pack and the newcomer), there can be problems. Do you just bring a new member into the house?

I know Cesar just walks the new member into his courtyard and I'm always amazed at how well it goes. I can't say I'm as adept at new-dog introductions as he is.  

What I mean is that (IME, at least) it takes time for some dogs. Some are just not eager to accept. But if introduced properly and given time, I believe almost any dog can be incorporated. It's just rarely flowers and sunshine for the first couple of days for me, at least.

I'm no Cesar.  

Xerxes

I don't know why that was hard to understand. 

It wasn't hard to understand. And thank you. The term "free-living dogs" (a term I have never before heard) was not defined. I thought "free-living dogs" were dogs who lived free.  We have already been all over this, and I have added a note to the original post, so there's no need to go over it again here.

ron2

I've been told by those who rescue and have more than one dog that my one dog one cat experience doesn't count.

To be fair, I think they were talking in terms of you observing "pack dynamics". In other words, to me, having one dog and one cat doesn't qualify as being in charge of a pack of dogs. In fact, even having 2 dogs is nothing like having 3 or 4 as far as observation of "pack dynamics" (There's a thread on this). It's been established that humans aren't dogs. but I happen to believe that a human CAN BE (and should be) a pack leader. If he has one dog or 30. But having one dog and one cat, in my opinion, doesn't give a human the opportunity to address dog interactions.

I actually think Shadow and Jade are a family or a pack and you are the head. But that situation doesn't provide for you to experience the intricacies of pure dog-on-dog interaction.

IMO, my 4 dogs are a "dog pack" of which there is an alpha dog and an omega dog. The larger pack under this roof (in this territory) consists of them plus my husband and myself (the leaders). But we (the humans) are separate from the pack of dogs in our humanness. I do believe THEY consider us the leaders of the pack, though, even though we are not dogs.

So, if my dog can't accept a cat as part of his pack, he can't accept me.

People who rescue and have more than one dog have said so.

I don't think they have. I think they have said that YOU don't have a dog pack. You don't have the opportunity of seeing dogs in the same pack interact. At least I think that's what was said.

I'm not convinced dog packs HAVE leaders in the way we think of leaders. They have dogs who are more dominant than other dogs, but leaders? all dominance means is that if there is one bone, guess who gets it. That's not a "leader".  I don't see my dominant bitch making up or enforcing rules the other dogs have to follow; that's something I do, but not "a thing of dogs".  She mostly IGNORES the other dogs- she doesn't care what they do, which is, I believe, a key characteristic of dominant dogs.

In domestic dog packs, I think I would agree with you. The alpha dog only makes rules as far as the other dogs' interactions with her are concerned. She doesn't "lead" or make rules about where to potty and so forth. That's why I call her "alpha" and not "leader". She doesn't lead them through the door, she doesn't lead them anywhere. She usually is the last one out. But she is the one who, if there is an altercation of any kind, wins, because the others submit.

In the wild, I DO believe the alpha dog would be the leader. They would take the pack hunting and lead them to other territory and so on. But in domestic packs, there isn't a need for the dog to be the leader, unless the human doesn't step up. Then you have "behavior issues".

Further, the reason I consider myself alpha of the pack is that not only do I make the rules (as leader), but I am also dominant. In any altercations, I win. Because the dogs submit to me. 

Add whatever kind of emotion to that that you wish, but I simply mean that I make and enforce the rules here. Not out of a need to be macha or a dictator, but out of a need to have a smooth-running and stink-free household.

I tend to think that a good way to test to see if you have a pack is to simply go on a walk without leases with your dog(s). If they stick with you and do not run away forever, you probably have a pack.

I am not so sure that domestic cats can be considered to be part of a pack. Do the test above to see. I do think tat cats are highly independant and therefore, it might be good to consider them to just be "members of the family" so to speak.

Within my own pack of dogs, I often see the dynamics change depending upon what is going on. On a walk, one dog may exhibit dominant characteristics, while at home in the back yard, another may show dominance when a few bones are brought out or personal space gets intruded upon. I tend to think that it really depends upon the group of dogs itself and what is true for one persons group of dogs may not hold water for another persons group.

Further, the reason I consider myself alpha of the pack is that not only do I make the rules (as leader), but I am also dominant. In any altercations, I win.

I don't have any altercations with my dogs. I do not consider myself to be "alpha".

We have multiple acres, and the dogs often go out as a group more or less un-supervised. They kind of wander around, any dog that appears to have found something interesting is followed, nothing much to do with pack rank. If they find something yummy like deer poop you see the others deferring to the approaching alpha- they gobble rapidly, then move away as she approaches.