Pack Rules

GoldenAC

I feel I am being anal

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GoldenAC

She was making the point that wolf studies may not apply to dogs and I think it is clear that she meant the species Canis lupus familiaris. 

That was not clear to me and still is not. If she meant domestic dogs, it would have been clear if she just said "domestic dogs" instead of "free-living dogs".  

GoldenAC

She meant Canis lupus familiaris...

I don't see how you could know what she meant. Regardless what she meant, she said "free-living dogs", which is pretty vague.

If anyone reads this thread, they'll understand.  

I found an interesting compilation of current research on feral dog packs in the book "Dogs, Zoonoses and Public Health."  Chapter two discusses "Dog Ecology and Population Ecology."  It deals with feral dog pack make up and behavior.  I am not quoting any specific section because the make up of packs varies depending on season, food supply and environment.  They also make the point, which I did not think of, that one of best groups of dogs to study are Dingos (dah on my part). 

Look at http://books.google.com/books?id=GyfJ0poSznAC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=feral+dog+studies&source=web&ots=rR48z6cuDU&sig=V5cbXvjNoFxEpfbtkSdtwF8l-18#PPA32,M1

espencer

GoldenAC

I feel I am being anal

 

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Chuffy

Are dogs in Mexico different to dogs from other parts of the world??  

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spiritdogs

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Moderator speaking.

Keep this thread useful to any and all who have interest in the topic..not just those, whomever they may be, who like to bicker back and forth. Keep it informational, civil and on topic.

I don't really care about wolf pack behavior or wild dog pack behavior.  A discussion on domestic dog pack behavior would be helpful.  Specifically the acceptance or rejection of a new dog in the pack.  I assume that since dogs are social animals, the pack will by default accept a new member.  But I am wondering what does that acceptance mean.  And what about if the majority accept but there is one loner who resist?

when you read these studies, you have to realize that the animals behave, and the people interpret. And may interpret incorrectly. I will quote a bit from McDonald and Carr: " casual observations in both villages suggested a rather amorphous society. Although certain dogs regularly kept one another compahy, there were no obvious packs"

Boitani: "the group ranged in size from three to fifteen"   "overall the group consisted of a core of two pairs and their offspring" , note frequent reference to "pairs" throughout his study 

oh, yeah, I think studies of african wild dogs apply to dogs even less than studies of wolves

my own observations of my own pack of dogs, of course tainted by being interpretated by me, is that I have a "pair" and a bunch of hangers-on. I suspect if they didn't all sort of be "forced" to live together by me some of the hangers-on would choose to live away from the pair. Since I have severely disrupted and influenced their behaviors in regard to eating, resource guarding, and so forth I can't comment on how they would have behaved if I hadn't interfered. They do hunt cooperatively and successfully when allowed to do so.

DPU

I don't really care about wolf pack behavior or wild dog pack behavior.  A discussion on domestic dog pack behavior would be helpful.  Specifically the acceptance or rejection of a new dog in the pack.  I assume that since dogs are social animals, the pack will by default accept a new member.  But I am wondering what does that acceptance mean.  And what about if the majority accept but there is one loner who resist?

Dogs do not accept new "pack members" by default.  As we have seen on this forum, there are times when resident dogs want nothing to do with the "intruder" and cannot be persuaded to tolerate the new dog.  Sometimes, they do accept a new dog.  But, when there is one dog in the group that doesn't, that dog tends to keep the same attitude and is not necessarily swayed by either human or canine intervention.  It would be as if you were asked to marry someone whose body odor, mannerisms, and intellectual capacity were decidedly unpleasant or vastly different from your own.  You would not be a happy camper, and would probably be invoking your right to marry whoever you darn please, regardless of the wishes of your family.

spiritdogs

Dogs do not accept new "pack members" by default. 

I agree. In fact, I would guess that more often than not, the pack is at least very hesitant to accept a new member. That's why it's so important to introduce them properly and oversee their interactions for a couple of weeks until they get used to the new member, which will happen most of the time, and start behaving in a more accepting way. B'asia had been here 6 months before Cara (the holdout) really started to accept her and play with her. When they play now, it's just weird! LOL

I also agree that sometimes new ones never integrate, but I do think that's rare. 

 I'm not 100% sure of what my dogs are thinking or how their social structure is set up, but I am 100% certain they know I'm not a dog, and don't fully consider me a part of the "dog group". People have for decades justified many really odd behaviors, like always eating dinner before feeding the dogs, or alpha rolling puppies, or forcing dogs to always walk behind them, on the grounds that dogs instintively follow strict "pack rules" and that if people don't follow these rules too the dogs will not regard the human as the "pack leader".  These concepts don't hold up to close scrutiny.

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof.  The dogs may form a pack with their own species, but from my readings dogs are conspecific and do not form packs with any other animal.

 And I disagree wholeheartedly with Cesar Millan's methods.

Viv

Vivdogz

My only point when starting this thread was to say that I dont thing that people are included in a the pack of dogs living under one roof.  The dogs may form a pack with their own species, but from my readings dogs are conspecific and do not form packs with any other animal.

 And I disagree wholeheartedly with Cesar Millan's methods.

Viv