Pack Rules

not sure what you mean by "pack rules"? most theories on packs are based on (possibly flawed) studies of wolf behavior and probably don't apply to dogs. Free-living dogs don't seem to form organized packs, living more in pairs and loosely associated groups.

mudpuppy

Free-living dogs don't seem to form organized packs, living more in pairs and loosely associated groups.

Then you need to go to Mexico, you see tons of packs there with more than just 2 members, maybe here in USA with the animal control programs the most a pack can have is 2 members

 Well, since humans and dogs have been socializing with one another for 15,000+ years, I'm sure that I don't know who "founded" the idea of pack structure, but recent studies show that dogs do behave somewhat differently than wolves, even though they share many characteristics, too.  Good authors you may want to read: Ray Coppinger, John Paul Scott, James Serpell, etc.

There seems to be a lot of different ideas about dogs and humans living together and forming a social pack, humans being the pack leader.  And after seeing the Cesar Millan show I was quite shocked to watch what he did to the poor dogs!

 I've read Jean Donaldson, Ray Coppinger, Turid Ruugas (sp?), and Barry Eaton.  So far Barry Eaton is my favorite book and has blown these "pack rules" to pieces.  So I'm finding my own way through all these great teachers.

 I still see a lot of people in my area of the UK yanking dogs aroung on choke and prong collars as well as Gentle Leaders.  Also hitting dogs and if I'm in earshot of such a person I will let them know that's inappropriate and that I will call the RSPCA if I see them do that again.  This is a small town and every training class uses chain/prong methods, except one.

 I am glad to have found this forum to ask questions on.  I am pleased about the wealth of knowledge there is to learn from you all!

Viv Brookes,Belper,UK (Please forgive spelling-I have Early Onset Parkinsons so don't write as well as I did.)

 Thanks, Viv.  We're glad you're here, too.   Don't worry about the spelling - we understand.  After all, we talk to dogs, too, and they have trouble with spelling, too - go read the revival of the "I ate my bed" thread and you'll see:-))

um, espencer, just because it's a group of dogs does not mean it's an organized pack. Try reading some actual studies of dog behavior- Boitani's study of free-living dogs in italy is a classic. Most wolf studies are starting to conclude wolves social structure is also based on "breeding pairs" with relatives loosely associated around the pair, coming and going, rather than the old idea of a rigid, set-for-life pack structure.

mudpuppy

um, espencer, just because it's a group of dogs does not mean it's an organized pack. Try reading some actual studies of dog behavior- Boitani's study of free-living dogs in italy is a classic. Most wolf studies are starting to conclude wolves social structure is also based on "breeding pairs" with relatives loosely associated around the pair, coming and going, rather than the old idea of a rigid, set-for-life pack structure.

How many groups of dogs have you seen in Mexico again? Very smart to compare wolves with dogs only when is convenient to prove a point, some other times is not that convenient and then we end up with the "dogs are not wolves" and the "40 years old and outdated wolves studies" comments, even more funny that the age of the "wolves studies" depends on when you want to prove a point or disapprove one

espencer

mudpuppy

um, espencer, just because it's a group of dogs does not mean it's an organized pack. Try reading some actual studies of dog behavior- Boitani's study of free-living dogs in italy is a classic. Most wolf studies are starting to conclude wolves social structure is also based on "breeding pairs" with relatives loosely associated around the pair, coming and going, rather than the old idea of a rigid, set-for-life pack structure.

 

How many groups of dogs have you seen in Mexico again? Very smart to compare wolves with dogs only when is convenient to prove a point, some other times is not that convenient and then we end up with the "dogs are not wolves" and the "40 years old and outdated wolves studies" comments, even more funny that the age of the "wolves studies" depends on when you want to prove a point or disapprove one

Just wondering, are there any published scientific studies about Mexican dog packs?  They would be interesting to read.  Is there anyone doing studies on them? 

Are dogs in Mexico different to dogs from other parts of the world??  

mudpuppy

Free-living dogs don't seem to form organized packs, living more in pairs and loosely associated groups.

Do you have a source for this?  Because everything I find quotes much higher numbers.

Wild dogs are social, communally hunting carnivores, which live in small cohesive packs typically composed of a dominant breeding pair, a number of non-breeding adults, and their dependent offspring. Within the wild dog pack all the males are related to each other, and all of the females to each other but not to the males. Females migrate into the pack, whereas males usually stay with their natal pack. Only the highest-ranking male and female normally breed, and they inhibit reproduction by subordinates. Pack size ranges from 2 - 43, with the average number usually between 8 - 11.
Source

Currently, 31 wild dogs are being monitored in three packs. The Hluhluwe pack is the largest, with 17 dogs.
Source

EDIT: This post was made before the definition of "free-living dogs" was given. Free-living dogs apparently means formerly domesticated dogs and as such, the sources IN THIS POST don't apply to them. The source for formerly domesticated dogs forming packs is in the following post. Thank you.

Vivdogz

And after seeing the Cesar Millan show I was quite shocked to watch what he did to the poor dogs!

I wasn't aware that his show was televised in the UK. What specifically did you see on his show that shocked you? 

mudpuppy

just because it's a group of dogs does not mean it's an organized pack. Try reading some actual studies of dog behavior- Boitani's study of free-living dogs in italy is a classic.

Boitani seems to think these free-living dogs in Italy roam in large packs.  

These feral dogs behave more like wolves than like domestic dogs, Dr. Boitani said. They roam in packs of 20 to 25, prowl mainly at night, spend the day hidden in resting areas and are generally ''very elusive.''
Source

Thanks for that link.  That's really interesting  

These feral dogs are behaving "More like wolves than domestic dogs".  Perhaps if you were looking for clues to wolf behaviour, you could study that of feral dogs, and vice versa.  I don't see the advantage of examining either for insights into our domestic dogs though?  Or am I missing a vital point here? 

The original post asks who applied pack rules to dogs. I assume they meant wolf pack rules. Although it's a little ambiguous.  The very first response says that "free-living" dogs (although I'm not sure what is meant by that term) don't form organized packs. The link is about domestic dogs reverting to the wild and forming packs. So, yeah, I think clues to the behavior of wolves, wild dogs, domesticated but reverted dogs and our own domesticated dogs can be found in the behavior of each other.

Vivdogz

So far Barry Eaton is my favorite book and has blown these "pack rules" to pieces.

Let me guess, your less favorite might be the ones who support the pack structure, which ones we should believe?

GoldenAC

Just wondering, are there any published scientific studies about Mexican dog packs?  They would be interesting to read.  Is there anyone doing studies on them? 

I bet they would be interesting for people that have not even see them in person

Chuffy

Are dogs in Mexico different to dogs from other parts of the world??