Pack Rules

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany
    Wild dogs are social, communally hunting carnivores, which live in small cohesive packs typically composed of a dominant breeding pair, a number of non-breeding adults, and their dependent offspring. Within the wild dog pack all the males are related to each other, and all of the females to each other but not to the males. Females migrate into the pack, whereas males usually stay with their natal pack. Only the highest-ranking male and female normally breed, and they inhibit reproduction by subordinates. Pack size ranges from 2 - 43, with the average number usually between 8 - 11.
    Source

     

    I believe research is about African Wild Dogs, a different species from the domestic dog.

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    GoldenAC
    Just wondering, are there any published scientific studies about Mexican dog packs?  They would be interesting to read.  Is there anyone doing studies on them? 

    I bet they would be interesting for people that have not even see them in person

     

    What?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    GoldenAC
    I believe research is about African Wild Dogs, a different species from the domestic dog.

     

    Yes. It is. But read my following post.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    If someone wants to study humans and canines living together peacefully through clear communication and social order, I would suggest Cesar Millan's book "Cesar's Way" and watching his show "The Dog Whisperer" on National Geographic - along with reading some other tidbits like "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier, the works of Bruce Fogle, Stanley Coren, Michael Fox, Myrna Milani, The Monks of New Skete... 

    Personally, I wouldn't recommend following Jean Donaldson's cheery and open-minded doctrine (not), the Coppinger's "absolute proof" that dogs aren't pack animals (not), and the emotional reading of dog body language through calming (and oh so fearful) signals...(not).

    I'd take a break from the +R dogma and research some articles such as "In Search of Balance", posted on the International Association of Canine Professionals site:

    http://www.dogpro.org

     

     

    Happy reading!

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    GoldenAC
    I believe research is about African Wild Dogs, a different species from the domestic dog.

     

    Yes. It is. But read my following post.  

     

     Sorry, but I think that you should remove the first post or edit it to acknowledge that those references do not refer to domestic dogs.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    GoldenAC
    Sorry, but I think that you should remove the first post or edit it to acknowledge that those references do not refer to domestic dogs.

     

    Look at the quote I am replying to in that post. It's mudpuppy's post where she talks about "free-living dogs". As far as I have been able to find out, free-living dogs are feral, semi-feral or wild dogs. So I was responding to someone who was putting forth the notion that wild dogs don't form organized packs. Without a source to back up the assertion, I might add. I then posted 2 sources about wild dogs living in "packs". And the following post includes a source about formerly-domesticated dogs living in packs. It's very clear what my posts say. There is no intention to deceive.

    If you have a problem with my post, please contact a moderator.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pack rules is something I witness everyday......I realize we keep our dogs in a domesticated environment, but, let's say our packs were left to their own devices and could find enough food to survive.....would those established packs survive, would they change or just simply fall apart?

    • Gold Top Dog

    snownose

    Pack rules is something I witness everyday......I realize we keep our dogs in a domesticated environment, but, let's say our packs were left to their own devices and could find enough food to survive.....would those established packs survive, would they change or just simply fall apart?

     

    I've thought about that before too... 

    I also wonder how breed comes into play.  Would say, a pack of Labradors have the same sort of structure or rules as a pack of akitas, all other things being equal?  

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    GoldenAC
    Sorry, but I think that you should remove the first post or edit it to acknowledge that those references do not refer to domestic dogs.

     

    Look at the quote I am replying to in that post. It's mudpuppy's post where she talks about "free-living dogs". As far as I have been able to find out, free-living dogs are feral, semi-feral or wild dogs. So I was responding to someone who was putting forth the notion that wild dogs don't form organized packs. Without a source to back up the assertion, I might add. I then posted 2 sources about wild dogs living in "packs". And the following post includes a source about formerly-domesticated dogs living in packs. It's very clear what my posts say. There is no intention to deceive.

    If you have a problem with my post, please contact a moderator.

     

     

    I am trying to make the point that "free-living" dogs are of the genus Canis lupus familiaris while the research you cited is about the African Wild Dog, the genus Lycaon pictus.  While they are both canids, they are not that closely related.  The African WIld Dog is by no means feral, semi-feral or wild DOGS.  Your use of this research to make a claim about domestic dogs is like using cultural anthropologies of Native Americans (Indians) to understand the culture of people from the sub-continent of India.  I believe it is misleading, hopefully unintentionally, to people who do not look up the source link, or who do not realize that African Wild Dogs are not just wild domesticated dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    GoldenAC
    I am trying to make the point that "free-living" dogs are of the genus Canis lupus familiaris while the research you cited is about the African Wild Dog, the genus Lycaon pictus

     

    Then you have made your point. Smile

    GoldenAC
    Your use of this research to make a claim about domestic dogs ...

     

    I did not use this source to claim anything about domestic dogs. As I said before, this was in response to a claim about "Free-living dogs". From my source:


    Free-living populations of African wild dogs (Lycaon pictus) have declined markedly over the past several decades ...

     

    My source did not claim anything about species or genus. I simply sited several sources that support that various Canids form packs, including the free-living African wild dog and free-living previously-domesticated dogs (in the very next post). And if you lived in my home, you would also be aware that currently-domesticated dogs form packs. Smile

    If you have a source that supports a claim that Canids (or "free-living dogs";) do not form packs, please feel free to cite it. In fact, if that claim had been supported in the first place, we would not be having this discussion.

    Also, if you would like to more narrowly define the term "free-living dogs", again, be my guest. But that is not going to change the fact that many Canids form packs.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I looked up the word, because I was curious.  I was thinking that people operate in packs whenever they are grouped.  The predatory aspect of the definition to my mind brings in the sharing of food and resources, which we often do in groups at work, at home, in the community, in the world even.  Sorry if this doesn't fit the original question.

    a group of people or things: a pack of fools; a pack of lies.

    a group of certain animals of the same kind, esp. predatory ones: a pack of wolves.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Here's two cents.

    An interesting concept as been emergent theory. Packs, for lack of a better word, are comprised of individuals that cooperate to successfully hunt. Sometimes, the canid with the best sense of smell goes on point, to sniff out the prey. But it may be another that is the fastest runner that flushes the prey into an ambush scenario.

    Also, according to L. David Mech, who's references are everywhere (just google it) most actual wolf packs are usually families. Alpha is actually parent and refers primarily to breeding rights. So, to assume a group of disparate dogs as one might find in a home forms a pack assumes a relationship of sanguinity that is not possible.

    But dogs can and do form alliances and social relationships, sometimes instantly but who is in the lead can be fluid, as it is with the two dogs on my south side, a Coonhound mix and a Scottie. The Coonhound, who is bigger, will mount the Scottie but, at other times, the Scottie will growl and the Coonhound backs off. The will wrestle with the stick. The Scottie si more vocal but the Coonhound is an escape artist.

    And just to confuse things even more, the Scottie is male and the Coonhound is female. Yes, the female mounts the male. Granted, many have stated that 2 dogs do not make a pack.

    While it may be established that several canid types can form packs there are also canids that do form associations but do not maintain a tight cohesiveness. The coyote can easily operate alone, primarily for scavenging but can cooperate for a hunt. And jackals can be quite solitary.

    I think what should be taken into account is the effect of Man.  A group of dogs allowed to run free with minimal contact with man may begin to regain some of the wild aspects, as a matter of survival. Animals not smart or fast enough to catch prey die out and reproduce less. As successive generations come along, relying less on humans and more on themselves, the less dog-like they are. It's a reverse of the domestication process. Humans allowed more food and breeding privilege to dogs that did what or looked like what they wanted. And the dogs that listened to Man stood a better chance of survival. So wild dogs and formerly domesticated dogs now running wild are still going to be different than the domesticated breeds because their survival depends on it. And one of the primary concepts in the emergent theory is that the primary purpose of the pack outside of being a family until the cubs become adults is to successfully hunt. Once dogs began to scavenge, ala coyotes, they didn't need as much of the pack cohesion especially if there was direct intervention from Man. But, because Man is a social creature, the social aspects of dogs have been retained, as it turned out to help them survive with man or was picked by Man as a desirable trait to have.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Firstly, Theodosia brings up a great point about what defines a pack. Is it a group that "hangs out" and lives together? Is breeding a requirement of a pack? Do they have to hunt together to be a pack? Does a pack require a firm and unchanging hierarchy? Blood bonds? Because if that's how you define "pack", then clearly, my mostly neutered group is not a "pack". (although I have 2 pairs of blood-bonded dogs, they have a fairly stable hierarchy and they have cooperatively hunted together.)

    Secondly, great information, ron!  

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    The book about Randy Grimm called "The Man Who talks to Dogs" has lots of descriptions of packs of stray and feral dogs in St Louis. It's a great read about a very dear, if not utterly kooky, man, his generous and heroic work in rescue, and his observations of urban wasteland dog society.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    FourIsCompany

    GoldenAC
    I am trying to make the point that "free-living" dogs are of the genus Canis lupus familiaris while the research you cited is about the African Wild Dog, the genus Lycaon pictus

     

    Then you have made your point. Smile

    GoldenAC
    Your use of this research to make a claim about domestic dogs ...

     

    I did not use this source to claim anything about domestic dogs. As I said before, this was in response to a claim about "Free-living dogs". From my source:


    Free-living populations of African wild dogs (Lycaon pictus) have declined markedly over the past several decades ...

     

    My source did not claim anything about species or genus. I simply sited several sources that support that various Canids form packs, including the free-living African wild dog and free-living previously-domesticated dogs (in the very next post). And if you lived in my home, you would also be aware that currently-domesticated dogs form packs. Smile

    If you have a source that supports a claim that Canids (or "free-living dogs";) do not form packs, please feel free to cite it. In fact, if that claim had been supported in the first place, we would not be having this discussion.

    Also, if you would like to more narrowly define the term "free-living dogs", again, be my guest. But that is not going to change the fact that many Canids form packs.

     

    I tried to leave this alone since it is Xmas eve and I feel I am being anal, but I just can't.Geeked

    In the first post mudpuppy stated that

    "not sure what you mean by "pack rules"? most theories on packs are based on (possibly flawed) studies of wolf behavior and probably don't apply to dogs. Free-living dogs don't seem to form organized packs, living more in pairs and loosely associated groups."

    She was making the point that wolf studies may not apply to dogs and I think it is clear that she meant the species Canis lupus familiaris.   You asked for a source, since your research differed from her.  She meant Canis lupus familiaris, so your direct reply should have referred to the same species.  At that point you did not make any distinction as to species to clarify your point.

     I am not arguing that canids do not form packs.  I was not even arguing that free-living domestic dogs do not form packs.  I was not arguing any point.  After too many years of my own research and getting knocked for sloppy claims (and grading undergrad research), I tend to nitpicky about how sources are used and in this case I believe your citation is misleading and should be changed.  And I would hope we would WANT to be as clear as possible and not tell people who point out errors that they should take it to the moderator.

     Happy Howlidays to everyone