Pack Rules

I have to laugh at comments about CM being overly harsh on dogs while training.... tell you what... i think dogs are harsh on each other when setting up their own boundaries and limitations... so are horses...

Laugh all you want, but the reason it's funny is that you are correct that dogs and horses can be harsh with one another - the difference is that they do it in fluent "canine" and "equine", not in a foreign language.  Instruction given in a language that an animal doesn't understand is NOT benevolent, it's unfair.  Often, when people criticize CM's harshness, it's because they are seeing the stress and displacement signals that he either isn't seeing or isn't interpreting correctly.  Fear is not "calm submission", nor is "freezing".  JMHO, but you can't lead a pack if the pack doesn't understand you.

Who was it that said if you think you have a pack, take all the leashes off and see if they stay with you or go off to do whatever it is they would prefer to do.

 

spiritdogs

Who was it that said if you think you have a pack, take all the leashes off and see if they stay with you or go off to do whatever it is they would prefer to do.

I can answer this.....I do it all the time....and we all stay together.....

I think different people have different talents. Some have an aptitude for understanding and learning different languages and are naturals at separating emotional states from communication when "reading" facial expressions, body positioning, body posture, eye contact, intent, etc...in humans, dogs, horses, and other animals.

Much of this exists on a more primal level which requires out-of-the-box thinking and not getting caught up in only believing the unprovable (and often emotional) opinions of other humans, sterile laboratory experiments (which contain no social interactions to help another animal succeed), and instead learning from the animals themselves in the real world with all of it's many variables.

Dogs are certainly better at reading most humans than they read their dogs, from everything I've seen and experienced. It doesn't matter to me or the dogs I've worked with that I'm not a dog. It's rather remarkable to see the expression on a dog's face and how they are drawn to me when they realise that they are actually being understood by a human...sometimes for the first time in their lives.

This is something which must be experienced and felt in person, in order to be understood and appreciated, IMO.

I don't need a leash or food to have a dog watch me, follow me, trust me, respect me, love me, and see me as their leader.

Those who have communicated with their dogs on this level, know what I'm talking about.

Before discovering Cesar Millan, Suzanne Clothier, and a few other ultra intuative and gifted people I've met on dog boards and elsewhere in dog world, I thought I was the only one...

...I'm beyond grateful that I don't feel alone in my "strange" connection with dogs, anymore!

I'm still catching up here, so bear with me.

I have been thinking. 

I have been thinking about this idea that dogs form a "pack" with the family (or not, depending on your point of view).   I have also been thinking about the term "alpha" and how (or if) it can applied to the human leader.

Supposing the dog DOES see his human family as his "pack" and supposing he DOES see you as "alpha".  What happens if you are a breeder?  Usually it's the "alpha pair" that breeds, right?  So, if your dog breeds, might he not think of himself as "alpha"?

Breeders step in!  Do you find you have behavioural issues in your dog(s) that might relate directly to them believing that they, not you, are the leaders of your pack? And do you think they might believe that because of being allowed to breed?

Thought anyone? 

snownose

spiritdogs

Who was it that said if you think you have a pack, take all the leashes off and see if they stay with you or go off to do whatever it is they would prefer to do.

 

I can answer this.....I do it all the time....and we all stay together.....

As do we.  But, I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people whose dogs are not so bonded to them.  I do think that the term "pack" is more like a social group for dogs, than a true pack structure as we classically see in wolves.  Coyotes have family groups, but tend not to include neighbors as friends.  So, for various canids, I suppose there are different rules of the game.  Plus, we have deliberately neotenized dogs so that many of them do not display characteristics one would expect of mature wild canines.   

I think Chuffy is on to something - although I'm not sure what.  However, I find it interesting that my dogs don't even notice if I bring a puppy into the house - I think they assume that I "had" it LOL, so they welcome it.  They are probably now trying to figure out who the heck I mated with to produce that "speckled monstah" LOLOL. 

Chuffy

Breeders step in!  Do you find you have behavioural issues in your dog(s) that might relate directly to them believing that they, not you, are the leaders of your pack? And do you think they might believe that because of being allowed to breed?

I have had a submissive male that I had to collect because he would not perform in front of any person he considered alpha...and that most definitely included me. It happens...not all males are born studs...lol. Sometimes it's because they've been corrected for mounting in the past...in this case I raised him from a pup and I was the boss...nothing really more.

I've had females that normally get along great...go at it for keeps because both were preggers. Breeding plays a role...hormones and instinct always do tho...even in fixed dogs.

spiritdogs

They are probably now trying to figure out who the heck I mated with to produce that "speckled monstah"

I was asking myself the same question.

I'm sorry, that was an easy shot and I couldn't resist. I am weak to temptation. Bad Ron, bad Ron ...

spiritdogs

I think Chuffy is on to something - although I'm not sure what. 

Actually it was pure curiosity and nothing more.  I wanted to see if breeders tails (ha! sorry) would support the "pack rules" or not.  So far, it seems they do.  As others have said though, it's bound to differ between breeds (isn't it?)  I wonder how far that is the case?   Are any other breeders reading this?!

Thanks Gina.  That's given me food for thought and no mistake!  And others too I hope.  Right now it's stupid o clock and my brain has morphed into a pumpkin, so I will wish you all goodnight and I'll be back to ponder this at a more reasonable hour...

Hmm. Here in Australia, I know some of the remote towns inland have what they call "camp dogs". I've never seen such a pack, but I've seen footage and heard it said that they are quite disliked by the locals for their propensity to come charging out to harangue every person that walks by. These camp dogs hang out in a set territory and the pack, if it is such a thing, can number over 20 dogs. They're just a whole lot of mongrels, possibly with a bit of dingo here and there, and no owners. They act very territorial and come out to bark at the people who walk past. I don't have a lot of info to go on, but I understand they are mostly unrelated and just hang out together because dogs are social and prefer to hang out with other dogs.

I don't especially think that dingoes and the likes are particularly good examples of dog social structure. In Australia, food is so scarce that there usually isn't enough to support more than one dingo. Dingoes in my area run alone for the most part. Even so, in the tropics where food is abundant, the most dingoes I ever saw hanging out together was two, and I saw a lot up there. I don't consider them a very social species. They're social like my hare is social. Hares are solitary in the wild as a rule, but I'm convinced it's not by choice. My hare very much prefers to be with his whole family. His family consists of me, my dog, and a rabbit. If we're all there, he's much happier, more confident, and settles more readily than if he's with only part of his family. Even though the dog doesn't like him and the rabbit bites his nose, he's happier when we're all with him, and I've read that hares will travel in family groups where there's enough food and few predators. They hang out together if they can, but usually the environment dictates that they should split up. Thus, they might like company, but they don't need it. Similarly, I think dingoes like company, but really only if it's their family and they don't need it. I think domestic dogs are far more social than dingoes by nature. Shouldn't a pack be a situation where the pack members more or less rely on one another to some degree?

ron2

Therefore, how can a human be part of the pack if the human is not a dog? And if a human can't be part of the pack because of not being a dog, then why try to be alpha which, as Mudpuppy and L. David Mech point out, usually refers to the breeding pair, as most traditional wolf packs are families?

That is either a non-canine can be part of the pack or it cannot. I don't see anything magical about a human that makes them more able to be in the pack than a feline. In fact, I'm using the logic of your (in general) statements.

If a pack can only form between dogs, then not even a human can be part of the pack. OTOH, dogs do bond to humans more than any other canid.

 Finally!  Someone agrees with my point at the beginning of this thread!!  Thanks Ron

Viv

 Perhaps we should be using different terminology when we talk about our relationship with dogs - we are a bonded social group, perhaps.

spiritdogs

we are a bonded social group, perhaps

I see nothing wrong with that. Just as others you who use corrections are uncomfortable with the word punishment because of what that words means to them in their upbringing, we could have a different label for the interaction between humans and dogs, which is a special and undeniable thing. And, in the logical sense, would need to be differentiated from the pack idea since only dogs can pack with other dogs.

ron2

only dogs can pack with other dogs.

By whom was this determined? It seems you're building a conclusion on a statement that has no basis. What is the basis of the statement that "only dogs can pack with other dogs"?

Ron, are you actually saying that it's ok if we call ourselves "leader of the bonded social group", as long as we don't say we're "alpha of the pack"? LOL  Can we talk about semantics?

How about I call myself part of the pack, with the understanding that we don't actually hunt together? I hunt alone and bring home the food for the rest of the pack.

How about when I use the phrase "my pack" you just think in your mind, "She means her bonded social group", and remind yourself that we don't hunt together?

I have never seen how CM does it but my method may be similar.  Basically I establish a bond with the new dog.  I lead the dog into my backyard and the dog is given an opportunity to get a feel of the layout of the yard, you know hiding places.  The dog also smells the other dogs and also hears the other dogs in the house.  I introduce the pack in tiers with the longest residence first and then fosters, depending on how long they have been with me. 

I'm curious DPU and others who foster many dogs; do you really think the dogs consider themselves a "pack"? or do they perhaps think they just live in some kind of extended doggy daycare situation, a bunch of dogs trying to get along? Consider when people bring dogs to the dog park- these dogs don't know each other, and yet you almost never see any kind of truly aggressive behaviors. I liken it to people- you have your family, and your family can certainly go to social events and interact with others for extended periods with few if any expressions of violence.

I think the only way you could really test if your dogs are a pack or not would be to set them lose to fend for themselves for a few weeks, and see who stays with who. The experiment of course is untenable.

I wonder, following my same train of thought as before, what does your dog think when you, er, go to bed with your partner???  They must know what's going on surely?  Might that be why some dogs get "jealous"?

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