Puppy pin spin-off - aggressive puppies

Admin note...

Please stay on topic - aggressive puppies and how one might deal with them.  This is not the place for the continuation of a previous thread, for tit-for-tat jabs or anything else that doesn't relate to the topic.   Further off-topic posts will be edited. 

I think Kim is on to something.  When you have an aggressive puppy, or a socially inept older pup or dog, the best teachers in the world can be the non-aggressive, socially appropriate dogs.  Even when a pup is not as well socialized as he might be, he is still then dealing with "native speakers".  I have one dog, Fergie, who I adopted in her middle years, that never really played with other dogs, although she was raised around large and small dogs.  Sequoyah, who is very facile in "canine" taught Fergie how to play - and she's 18 years old.  I thought I heard Sioux and Sequoyah playing, as they often do, and walked in to the living room to find that it was my youngest and my oldest dog engaged in the slap and spin herdin' dog "tag".  Sequoyah was being as gentle with Fergie as she could - she plays much rougher with Sioux who has all that hair, a few pounds on her, and can take it.  In her two years, she has also taught a few puppies to keep their teeth and their attitudes to themselves.  All without one drop of blood spilled, or friendships ruined.

spiritdogs

When you have an aggressive puppy, or a socially inept older pup or dog, the best teachers in the world can be the non-aggressive, socially appropriate dogs. 

I can agree with that....and imo, it's best done within a group of dogs, as I have witnessed, if one dog gets picked on for just a short period of time, the other dogs chime in and all things are equal again....one on one is a little unfair to the less able dog.....

snownose

spiritdogs

When you have an aggressive puppy, or a socially inept older pup or dog, the best teachers in the world can be the non-aggressive, socially appropriate dogs. 

 

I can agree with that....and imo, it's best done within a group of dogs, as I have witnessed, if one dog gets picked on for just a short period of time, the other dogs chime in and all things are equal again....one on one is a little unfair to the less able dog.....

Sometimes, but we have a really nice chocolate Lab who we do put one on one with nervous dogs.  He is the epitome of calm, appropriate, unassuming.  But, he speaks his canine language well and is a very high ranking dog.  Quite a few times, we have put him in with such dogs one on one and he does a masterful job at keeping order and building confidence in other dogs.  Plus, he has a sense of humor! 

spiritdogs

Sometimes, but we have a really nice chocolate Lab who we do put one on one with nervous dogs.  He is the epitome of calm, appropriate, unassuming.  But, he speaks his canine language well and is a very high ranking dog.  Quite a few times, we have put him in with such dogs one on one and he does a masterful job at keeping order and building confidence in other dogs.  Plus, he has a sense of humor! 

I agree again....but, the chocolate Lab has a calming effect and will not pounce on a nervous dog, even though he is the higher ranking animal of the two......

Sasha does BEST with one-on-one time with confident respectful dogs who will also engage play.

And snownose, please stop harping on Kim. We all know your opinion of her training methods and her dogs' behavior. We've had the opportunity to read it over and over again.   

When I have fosters who need to learn how to play, I most often team them up with Theo.  Theo is the smallest of my shepherds and some of these oversized pups make him look like a midget.  Sometimes it could look to an outsider like Theo is being terrorized, but he teaches fosters very well how to play so that I can then move them into the group.

Dog_ma

And snownose, please stop harping on Kim. We all know your opinion of her training methods and her dogs' behavior. We've had the opportunity to read it over and over again. 

No harping....she laid out her approach, and I point out things that make absolutely no sense to me......

my thought is, the more aggressive the dog, the less aggressive you need to be- calm, quiet,hands-off, guide the dog to make the right choices, take it slow. Most aggression is rooted in fear of some kind, so your best approach is to reduce the fear level. That said, there is a big difference between a "management" situation (puppy is sinking teeth into arm, dog is about to go for your dog's throat, puppy is about to eat the electric wires) and a training situation. Sometimes you have to act to stop mayhem. But believing that your action is "training" and will make some kind of long-lasting impact on the dog, or that it is actually a preferred approach to training, is just wrong.

spiritdogs

I think Kim is on to something.  When you have an aggressive puppy, or a socially inept older pup or dog, the best teachers in the world can be the non-aggressive, socially appropriate dogs. 

Really?  In another thread you made the statement to the OP:

"It sounds like you have a very undersocialized dog.  Unfortunately, there is little you can do about that, since the socialization window is between the ages of 8 and 12 weeks!  But, you can do some remedial training."

I felt sorry for the OP because that statement seem to give no hope for the OP's situation.  My advise was the same as KimMa.  Glad to see we can learn from each other on this forum.

DPU

Really?  In another thread you made the statement to the OP:

"It sounds like you have a very undersocialized dog.  Unfortunately, there is little you can do about that, since the socialization window is between the ages of 8 and 12 weeks!  But, you can do some remedial training."

I would think that each individual case gets decided on its own merit, with the information that is supplied.

What I see is that sometimes, an older, more stable dog can help a problematic dog fit in, regardless of what someone said in another thread about another dog in a different situation. I also think both statements are true. Dogs do have an important socialization window. I also think that time with a teaching dog could count as remedial training, depending on the dog in question. I guess I'm not seeing the statements as contradictory or even "convenient" for whatever topic we're in.

ETA: I think several people here have had some success with dog-dog training, even with dogs that were received after the proper socialization window. I also see a few dogs who have limited ability to rehab, even through dog-dog training and survive mainly because the human manages the environment well.

Hmmm. I suspect that Penny didn't help the matter with our angry young pup. The previous dog we'd had was the one that started a war with her and sent her to hospital more than once. We didn't know how she would take living with another dog after that, but she'd been getting on with other dogs we met as normal, so we thought she'd be okay. I think she was a little rough on the puppy when he was a baby, though. She frightened him, but it wasn't a good situation because she was a little frightened herself, frightened of not being the boss of the new dog because he might hurt her. Things were fine between her and the previous dog until her position was challenged. She's not a very confident dog when she's above others. She likes being the bottom, these days. Anyway, it might just be that this particular puppy didn't respond very well to her intensity at the time.

Thanks for the tip, Glenda. I might just try the drag line.

Kim, I'm prepared to believe this puppy might have been doing a calming sniff. I can't say for sure either way. It was too long ago, I was not as experienced at the time, and I couldn't even see him that well in the dim behind the couch. I don't remember enough about his behaviour leading up to it. Maybe I didn't even see it. I still think his behaviour was unusual, but I also believe much of his aggression that came about later in life was fear related. It's baffling because he had been socialised to kingdom come all through the socialisation window and beyond, and he had plenty of good experiences. Perhaps we weren't sensitive enough to him, though. But then, I still think of Pyry, who really was frightened about being handled as a puppy, and may well have been a half-brother of this aggressive pup. Pyry's problem was easily overcome, but not the other puppy's. It may just be that the other puppy had more complex problems and we did too many wrong things and not enough right things, but I for one will never know. I didn't spend enough time with him. Thanks a heap for your insights. I will be starting another thread about calming signals if no one else has beaten me to it. I might be able to think of a few of my own. And I think we could all do with some calming signals right now!

While I've never needed to use a drag line with a pup, other than to let them feel what a leash is going to be like, I do sometimes use them with fosters.  They can really be handy with a dog I'm not sure of, and I can't see any reason that it wouldn't work well on a pup.....other than maybe being eaten.

.:.

In that the OP asked a specific question about a specific dog, I don't see why she should not have used the title that she used.

Perhaps you could start a new thread to discuss your question.