Puppy pin spin-off - aggressive puppies

I'd like to chime in on the sniffing as a calming signal thing.  My terrier does this, or used to, before I did more work on his recall.  I'd call him and if he didn't come right away I'd call him again, agitated.  GUARANTEED every time, he would stop what he was doing and glance over at me and start sniffing at something - anything - close to him.  I used to think he was being "stubborn", "deliberately delaying", "stalling for time" and of course I'd get more agitated and he'd get more twitchy and try his best to tell me to calm down!  These days, a failure to come first time called is quite rare, I am much more understanding and I don't get so agitated because I think I am much better at reading a dog now.... I see "stubbornness" a lot less often, which lends me far more patience. 

I think it sounds highly possible that the pup in the OP was trying to send you calming signals and his tantrum may well have been panic rather than true aggression.  This fits in with the idea that something may have happened to him before he came to your home.  Without seeing him its so much harder to guess.  And I do think that if I were in your position, I may well have done the same as you, in reaching behind the couch... I'm not sure I HAVEN'T actually, at some point.  You really don't expect that kind of reaction from a pup.  Once IN that situation, where its back down or step up, I really couldn't say.  Its a case by case thing.  On the surface, it sounds like a stroppy puppy who is telling you off for annoying him and perhaps I may have used gentle restraint with a pup like that..... but on closer examination it seems its often anxiety or fear which has been misinterpeted and therefore doesn't warrant restraint or any kind of extra pressure IMO.

On the whole, dogs, especially puppies, are resiliant creatures and generally speaking I don't think one or two bad experiences will screw them up that badly.  They have evolved to co exist with us humans!  But having said that... I would not test that theory, particularly not if the pup was at a sensitive stage.

FWIW there IS no "human psychology" and "dog psychology".  As far as I know, there is just "psychology" and that's it.  And where is the line drawn between anthropomorphizing and empathizing?  Saying, "oh the pup doesn't care about being forcibly held to the ground.  I wouldn't like it, heck no, but I'm not a dog am I?"  just makes no sense.  None of us can KNOW what is in a dogs head, and the best starting point we have in our speculations is surely compassion and.... empathy..... no?  We know that dogs feel fear and pain and stress and anger and happiness and curiosity.... research PROVES it but us animal lovers don't need research on that score do we?  We just "know".  Animals are not "things".  That's why we're animal lovers, right? Otherwise we'd be just as happy with a Dog-bot.  So, if "projecting" can lead us to the correct answer in that instance, could it not also be a clue in other instances too?

glenmar

Excuse me for going  OT, but, perhaps all these folks wanting to see Anne's videos will pitch in and buy her a camera?

Yeah cos I don't believe her either!  I think she only has cats and it's all just a joke and she's cackling up her mad-cat-lady-sleeve at us all RIGHT NOW!  Argh those mad cat ladies make me so MAD!!!

PS. Anne, don't tell them I only have a goldfish

glenmar

In that the OP asked a specific question about a specific dog, I don't see why she should not have used the title that she used.

Perhaps you could start a new thread to discuss your question.

ANOTHER one?  Gosh.  That could get confusing....

Chuffy

On the whole, dogs, especially puppies, are resiliant creatures and generally speaking I don't think one or two bad experiences will screw them up that badly.  They have evolved to co exist with us humans!  But having said that... I would not test that theory, particularly not if the pup was at a sensitive stage.

Shimmer did. It wasn't meant to be a test of theory, but rather an innocent socialization period gone wrong. It was a one-time occurrence, which I do believe was the main factor, if not the only factor, that branded into her little brain at the time that other dogs were scary things. This traumatic experience, paired with her sensitive personality, during a sensitive period, was a bad match. Something so simple, in one moment, can alter things for a long time to come. She turned a year old a few days ago, and we're still not over her fear. She's come light years, including having gone to classes, competed in public obedience trials at the age of six months (not for qualifications, they weren't the goal, but to work around other dogs), and worked in close contact with other dogs. She acts good in public, and can be around other dogs, but she's still not over her fear of interacting with other dogs, and I doubt she ever will be with strange dogs. New dogs coming in a full-fledged family members, she has come to love, but quick, one-time encounters she does not care much for. Which is fine by me, as I don't care if she ever plays with strange dogs, all I ask is that she is not fearful of being around them, and being in public amongst them.

corvus

Kim, I'm prepared to believe this puppy might have been doing a calming sniff. I can't say for sure either way. It was too long ago, I was not as experienced at the time, and I couldn't even see him that well in the dim behind the couch. I don't remember enough about his behaviour leading up to it. Maybe I didn't even see it.

Yes, it was long ago. And it's possible the sniff wasn't a calming signal too (although I "think" it might have been). I'm just addressing all possibilities. :-)

corvus

still think his behaviour was unusual, but I also believe much of his aggression that came about later in life was fear related.

It may very well have been unusual, although I"m sure at the time the pup found it quite appropriate. ;-) Too bad we can't get into their minds sometimes to see what wheels are really turning. The fact that you see a lot of aggression later in life that stemmed from fear, though, provides stronger support for what happened as a puppy. It seems to fit well with a typical fearful dog.

corvus

It's baffling because he had been socialised to kingdom come all through the socialisation window and beyond, and he had plenty of good experiences.

The reality is, socialization doesn't solve all problems. Dogs with genetic fear predispositions, or genetically reactive personalities, are sometimes predisposed to reacting to things that other, normal dogs are not. What might not be a life-altering thing for a lot of dogs, can be for another. Also, there is such a thing as too much socialization, if the puppy is not prepared and does not have adequate rest between social outings. A puppy that encounters stress may quickly develop chronic stress if not allowed to let social experiences sink in, and it can have a very detrimental effect on a puppy's wellbeing. Stress hormones stay in the body for days, up to a week, so if the pup is exposed to another stressful situation (and stress comes with the sheer fact of being a puppy and learning about the world), before the stress hormones could dissipate, it can easily build up until the dog is just flowing in stress hormones (I could use the real term, but sticking  easy to understand words) and could affect the pup for a long time to come. It's one place where I do disagree with Dr. Dunbar regarding socialization. ;-) There is such  thing as too little, but there is such a thing as too much as well, and pups can become overwhelmed at new experiences, even if they aren't inherently scary.

But the idea behind stress hormones and working with animals is another topic in and of itself, but a very fascinating one. It's why when I take Gaci out on outings right now (living in the country), to work amongst people, I give her at LEAST four days to allow that experience to settle and her body return to homeostasis before stressing the body again (as even in the slow work that we do, it still allows for the release of stress hormones, just a lot less).

corvus

It may just be that the other puppy had more complex problems and we did too many wrong things and not enough right things, but I for one will never know.

You will never know, and you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. Sometimes people can cause problems, yes, and in those cases it is important to learn and reflect, but sometimes, despite doing everything that is "right", some puppies still grow up to have problems as adults. Just like with people. It's just what makes dogs individuals, and their bodies and minds, and brains, are all different. Gaci is a case in point. Bred from very good stock, with known histories, and a prior litter to compare personalities to. What resulted in Gaci, is a dog whose mother died at birth, was raised part-time by a surrogate mother (who, between two litters, shared 13 puppies - for a small dog that is a very large number) in which the pups developed a severe respiratory infection due to the lack of colostrum, causing a lot of developmental stress, during a time when the brain was developing, and of course lastly, even though the lines were known, always lies a possibility for a genetic combination in which the right genes matched up to create a personality that was more sensitive to the environment that other dogs may be.

Getting a dog from birth to adulthood is so complex, so many factors weigh in - genetics, early learning, illness, environmental enrichment, exposure to various things, brain make-up, hormone make-up, stress that occurred, socialization, diet - all of these thigns, combined, are what make a dog what it is, and any of these things, when disrupted (even diet for a young pup!) can result in semi-permanent to permanent changes in an animal. Even fetal distress - if a dam (mother dog) experiences higher than normal stress levels during pregnancy, that can have an effect on the brain development of puppies  a litter, and can predispose puppies to various issues, even if their genetics are otherwise normal. There is no guarantee when it comes to living beings, and contrary to the beliefs of some, not everything can be overcome by training and good leadership. Life just doesn't happen that way. Having grown up in a breeding family, I've learned just how important, through reading and first-hand experience, some of these factors can be.

Hmm, you guys have given me a lot to think about. I think it's all together possible that this puppy was overly stressed as a youngster for reasons I can't really say because I didn't live with him. I know that he found the weekly CGC classes stressful because of the trip in the car. Somewhere along the way he developed fairly severe car sickness and would not go voluntarily into the car no matter what, which led to him failing to get his CGC certificate. It may well have had something to do with Penny getting pretty intense about the car. In fact, Penny may well have been a large factor in the aggression that cropped up later. She never hurt him, but did frighten him very badly a couple of times that I know of. Add to that the busyness of the household, which may not have been particularly well-suited to his personality, and perhaps a grain of something in him since birth that led him to be pre-disposed to stress in these situations and that could largely account for what happened with him. I think the socialisation he received was about the amount recommended for puppies in general, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was too much for him. Especially as he grew older and decided he liked it less and less. I'm not sure, but it seemed my mother responded to this by trying to desensitise him, taking him out more. That was about the time it spiralled out of control and he bit someone. The behaviourist said his aggression could be managed, but my mother decided she didn't have the time or lifestyle suited to achieve that. I think she made the right choice, although she naturally still wonders if she did.

He seemed an unpredictable and 'outspoken' puppy to me at the time, but it could have been that he felt under pressure just by his home life alone. He never acted particularly fearful until he was a young adult. It's puppies like him, though, that make me a little frustrated when people say any problem a dog has is the fault of it's owners. He was raised by the book and it didn't make him into a well-balanced, happy dog. He was intensely territorial, aggressive, and fearful. He was not a happy dog. Maybe he never would have been in the environment he was living in. Perhaps it just wasn't suited to him. I do think we both learnt from him, though, and maybe that helped with Pyry, who has overcome fear issues he had as a puppy.

You have made some fundamentally important points here.

corvus

think the socialisation he received was about the amount recommended for puppies in general, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn it was too much for him.

There is no recipe for what amount of socialization is "right". What's right for one dog, may not be for another, or another. That's where it all comes down to knowing your dog, reading your dog, and listening to what your dog is telling you. Some puppies need next to no socialization to become extremely stable adults, I think we all know of have met dogs like that. Some puppies, with "normal" socialization, do not. Some puppies seem to receive too much socialization. Even the same amount of socialization, for three different puppies, can affect them all differently.

corvus

Especially as he grew older and decided he liked it less and less.

Also very important. Watching how behaviour changes over time. The fact that his behaviour changed for the worse, and he liked it less and less, was a sign that something in the situation was bothering him and he, as an individual, was not able to "adapt" to the situation.

corvus

The behaviourist said his aggression could be managed, but my mother decided she didn't have the time or lifestyle suited to achieve that. I think she made the right choice, although she naturally still wonders if she did.

Don't ever let anybody tell you, or make you feel, that deciding to euthanize a dog is a "bad" thing. It's nobody's right, and nobody's place. What happens in your circumstance, is not somebody else's - it's yours (in this case, hers). There are some dogs in this world that have beating hearts that likely should have been euth'ed a long time ago. For some dogs, the painless ending of a life can be a blessing, for they will not be suffering anymore. It's really not for this post, as it's way OT, but it's one reason I really will never personally be able to support no-kill shelters.

corvus

He never acted particularly fearful until he was a young adult.

Adolescence is a big time of change. Many dogs who develop their fears do so at this time, as the brain is undergoing a lot of changes, the dog is under a lot of natural stresses, there is another fear period in there, and the world suddenly looks like a whole different place. Fear development is common at this life stage, even when it wasn't present younger for some dogs. Gaci's problem manifested most strongly when she reached this age as well, whereas Shimmer's was set in at a very young age, wherein we worked out of it. The second fear period is one that a lot of people overlook, even people who are otherwise well-versed in dog life stages.

corvus

It's puppies like him, though, that make me a little frustrated when people say any problem a dog has is the fault of it's owners.

Don't let it frustrate you. While a lot of problems ARE caused, directly or indirectly, by their humans, there are also problems that have nothing to do with human intervention, which you probably realize by now. It's the complexities of living with another being, and understanding each individual as an individual, and realizing that some things are beyond the scope of teaching and the providing of leadership (if that's the term you use, it's not the one I use), that some things just are, and you either accept them in your dog, and deal with it, or you place the dog in a home where its needs will be better suited (another option that is not a bad solution, not everybody is capable of dealing with every kind of animal), or you give up and turn the dog away. As I've always said, acceptance of what your dog is, and what it is not, and not trying to make the dog into something it is not, is the first step in building a strong relationship.

Thanks Kim. I am at least resolved to be more open to my next puppy. I will never know what happened with the one this thread has been about because as I've said, I didn't live with him. I only saw him in snippets, and heard what my mother was seeing. She returned him to his breeder to be rehomed, but wonders if she should have had him put to sleep. She wasn't sure he would cope very well with a new home, and wasn't convinced he would ever be happy in a human world. I was the one that urged her to contact the breeder and the breeder easily convinced her to return him for rehoming, but I think she still wonders if she did the best she could by him by returning him. But that's all a bit off topic, as you say. It's such a personal thing to decide to put down an animal you love, and I think if you love them there is no right or wrong answer.

From what you described, since he was behind the couch he was vulnerable, to a point.  So when you went for him I think out of (his) fear began to protect himself by growling, biting, etc.  You did the right thing by pinning him and getting him out, but what happened afterwards?  Did he keep going behind the couch and your mother tried to get him, and he did the same thing so she left him go?  There's a lot of important info. missing to make him so "mean".  I think a lot of aggression issues (especially if people have had the dog since a pup) are due to the fact, they allow the dog to do what he wants.  That's not good.  If you start to see these signs, you really need to correct it immediately.  The only thing, I could think of that I would have done different is...move the couch out, then go get him.  Other than that, I think you actually did, O.K.  I believe his aggression later in life came from a stem of circumstances, not just that, where he wasn't properly corrected, maybe, he wasn't exercised enough, and was just plain allowed to behave the way he wanted to, without any repercussions.  But don't fret, you did what you could, after all it wasn't your dog!

Corvus, I read your original post and the followup as well as a majority of the answering posts. (Wow looks like everyone wanted to take this thread in an odd and combative direction.)

My take on the situation you mentioned is very close to DPU's interpretation.  I have always been taught and adhere to the idea that a dog in a corner, under a bed or in a "place of safety" should not be molested, touched or harassed unless it is an emergency.   If possible the couch should be moved, or the dog lured out before any sort of intervention by human hands occurs.  

It's quite possible that this dog, especially with Shiba Inu heritage, had a very strong fight or flight reflex and that is why you encountered a strong, violent resistance.  

 How would I act?  I can't say for sure.  It's easy to spout out philosophies and protocols but in the heat of the moment all of us will do what works, or what we feel will work at that moment.  My typical response is a super loud "HEY!" and in most dogs that stops them in their tracks (I've even stopped a fight in progress-so I know it's pretty loud!)    It doesn't work with all dogs (The family Pekes wouldn't respond to anything other than physical separation.) 

In the case of aggressive puppies, I would take each instance at it's own merit.  So for me to say what I would do in general might or might not be true to what really happens.

I hope I answered your question sufficiently.