Puppy pin spin-off - aggressive puppies

.:.

 Corvus, in retrospect I wish we had been more physical with Ivan when he a puppy.  It would not have prevented his various forms of aggression, but it might have made him safer for my husband and I.  As he grew to adulthood, neither my husband nor I had any doubt he would turn on us if we made a mistake. He threw puppy tantrums, ripped pants and broke skin. We did the slow patient thing. It helped, but I really wonder if it wouldn't have been better to be a bit tougher with him.

He was a dog who examined every thing from the lens of "Can I best it?" That is where Sasha got into trouble. She was more confident, but he was bigger and much much stronger. Therefore, she owed him deference in his mind.

Even back when I new less about dogs, I had the distinct feeling that if he had grown up in a pack of dogs, he would have either had his butt kicked into good behavior or been killed by the other dogs if he refused to find Jesus. This is why the prong, when we used it for corrections, worked so well.  A few *strong* corrections made him respect us more. It was too little too late, but got him another year and a half.  

 I don't know if what you did was over the top because I wasn't there to see it.  I'm sure the Dunbar bashers will be surprised, however, I do not always think that restraint is bad.  If I did resort to restraining the puppy, and that's a big "if" depending on the circumstances, I would immediately thereafter shift gears to engage him in an activity/behavior that I could reward.  That, of course, installs something other than being a jerk as the pup's default behavior.  Some puppies should not be corrected and others should.  I will say that I had more success with a recent client's aggressive pup by ignoring the "piranha" behavior and letting other dogs teach him to keep his mouth to himself.  With some very dominant pups, or pups with inappropriate dams, not always possible to do it that way.  As always, I opt for LIMA, then will consider other options.  But, deciding how to handle an aggressive pup isn't always as simple as lostcoyote's sarcasm about Dunbar makes it out to be.

Corvus, its has been a little under a decade since a very young puppy has been in my house.  In the near future I will be getting a couple of pup Danes.  My answer is based on dealings with adult dogs and me not knowing the dog.  If a dog is in a secure place like behind the couch, I don't go into that place to fetch the dog.  If the dog does not respond when I call or coax, I would unsecure the space by moving the couch and then observe.  If the dog is under a bed then the dog wins and its wait time.  The dog will come to me, come to me on my terms.  Then you can do your puppy pin or click or treat, or scold/lecture, and even give the dog affection.  My point is that you have to be in control.  Once I see aggression in any form, a broom is kept close by.  I have no problem swiping a dog with the straw end during such behavior.  If the dog attaches emotions to the incidence, it is on the broom and not me. 

I agree.

Mstr, Sgt. Ron.

corvus

So my question is, what would you do if you accidentally got yourself into a similar situation?

I'll be 100% honest with you (as always!).

I wouldn't have stuck my hand behind the couch. If I called and coaxed, and he didn't come out, I would have left him alone, and the situation likely never would have happened. Unless the puppy was stuck behind the couch and was somehow in danger (in which case I would do lots of other things), the puppy would come out when it was ready and felt comfortable. That's how I would have run the situation. The puppy was obviously very uncomfortable about the situation, whether it was you, or something else. The last thing I personally would have done was to stress the puppy any more. It was hiding there for a reason, likely, and the fact that it didn't come out when called in a friendly manner would have caused me to realize that the pup didn't WANT to interact with me. So I would have left the pup alone, and in fact moved away if possible to ease its stress and give it space, to relieve pressure.

I've learned to never assume a dog will be a certain way, no matter the age. Therefore I always am very controlled and do a lot of observing of an animal before interacting with it. This came in huge benefit when I worked at the boarding kennel and worked hands-on with every possible type of dog you could imagine. You would be asking for a bite injury that way. When a new dog came in, I would always observe at first (unless the dog was clearly a ball of love...I'm sure people know those types of dogs...they just wiggle and shine happiness). See how the dog is interacting with the environment, with me. I would interact with the dog in calm ways - giving it attention when it came to me, using calming signals and non-threatening body language, seeing what it's interests were, if it was stressed and if I knew what was stressing it, and what possible issues might be. It really prevents you from being bitten by strange dogs. In that way I worked very well with the dogs and never was put in a position that a dog reacted badly to me (I was bitten once, but it had nothing to do with me interacting with a dog, I was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time in the presence of a very anxious GSD who redirected in a split second).

So when I meet a new dog anywhere, first I ask the owner about their dog, while observing the dog for myself. If the owner says the dog likes people, I'll continue observing the dog for myself. A lot of owners are sadly ignorant about what their dogs are really saying. It's hard to say that, but it's so true. So many people say how much their dogs love people or love to be touched, while the dog is showing whale eye and grimacing at the thought of being touched. So even if owners say that their dogs like people, I look for myself and read the dog. I never approach a strange dog directly, rather I'll approach it in a curve, and stop some distance away, keeping my body facing slightly away from the dog. I then let the dog decide to approach me if it wants to. A dog that likes social contact will initiate it, I don't force it. I watch my body language most closely when being around strange dogs. It's the same reason that I have had so many people comment that their dog does NOT like people, and how surprised they were when their dog approached for a treat, or a lick, or even a sniff before backing away.

So for me, I never would have put this particular pup in a situation in which it was going to bite.

I think though, that you need not have worried too much about that one situation reinforcing the dog's growling. Perhaps it's a difference in  philosophies, but I would have listened to that growling and backed off immediately. And I would do it for any dog that was growling. I don't believe much in the adage of reinforcing that type of behaviour, especially not in one incident. Fear is a complex issue, as I've touched on before. It's very hard to reinforce fear, and it sounds like this dog was for whatever reason very fearful. The dog was communicating its wishes in the only way it new how, and if that had been me in that situation, I would have backed off immediately. And I wouldn't have worried one bit that the dog would have made any real associations that would be repeated much in the future, as I wouldn't be putting the dog back IN that position to repeat the behaviour. Rather, the dog would learn that I understood its communicative gesture, and I listened and answered in turn by relieving spacial pressure. It's not something often talked about, but that itself CAN be the starting point in earning a strange dog's trust. Simply listening to the dog, can teach the dog not to growl again in the future, but that humans as a whole are not total morons, that they can learn to understand and respect a dog's language. Again, what I would do is a lot different than what a lot of people would do, so some people will find it hard to grasp the concepts I describe. All I can say is what I experience and believe and hope that somebody besides me knows how to make some sense of it. :-)

.:.

lostcoyote

i have to laugh, sd, cuz dunbars the one recommending the alpha pin and giving it a new name - lol - call it what you want but it is what it is

So, would you rather be upended and put on your side forcibly, or would you prefer gentle restraint with a nice massage when you feel more calm?

BTW, I really like Kim's approach to the situation.  Prevention is always better than either the pin or the restraint. 

.:.

spiritdogs

 

lostcoyote

i have to laugh, sd, cuz dunbars the one recommending the alpha pin and giving it a new name - lol - call it what you want but it is what it is

 

So, would you rather be upended and put on your side forcibly, or would you prefer gentle restraint with a nice massage when you feel more calm?

 

BTW, I really like Kim's approach to the situation.  Prevention is always better than either the pin or the restraint. 

Prevention is a big word.......watching her videos ...and I mean, all of them(with all due respect).....scream of dogs out of control....her dogs can do all the little tricks, but when it comes right down to it...her dogs are not trained enough for larger dogs......for larger dogs it wouldn't cut it.....simple......jumping on the handler is out....no matter how one cuts it......

I'm not trying to be difficult, but being restrained against your will is never gentle in the mind of the one being restrained. Its pretty much a violation of will. (I don't think that makes it traumatizing).

I think the amount of force used can be more pleasant or less pleasant, but I don't know what impact position has on a dog's perception. Being held off the ground is not a natural position for a dog.  I am NOT saying Dunbar's method is worse than a side pin. But I don't see why it is intrinsically better.

spiritdogs......it would be really nice if we could see some videos or pics of your work.....

Uh huh, I appreciate that prevention is better than cure. However, there's a couple of problems with that and a few other assumptions.

Firstly, I wanted to get the pup out of there because there was a pile of live electrical cords he was looking like he wanted to chomp on. Perhaps they should have been concealed better with a puppy in the house, but they weren't because sometimes you don't think of these things until it comes up. I felt for his safety he needed to come out, but I still wouldn't have forseen him going for me nonetheless. I was very surprised.

I was very surprised because he was NOT afraid. He went back there to explore and was merrily poking around the electrical cords. Ears were pricked up and forward. He looked curious and relaxed. When I first touched him, he grumbled, but his head was down as he sniffed around and I couldn't see his facial expression, but the parts of his body I could see didn't change. He was pretty vocal usually, and I didn't pick it up as a serious warning. A moment later it had escalated into something more serious than I'd ever had directed at me by any dog, let alone a wee puppy. I was ill-prepared for it.

Thirdly, in retrospect, I think moving the couch would have been the best thing to do. However, that doesn't help me much in the moment I realise I've made a mistake and have to either meet the physical confrontation with the small puppy or quickly back off. I'm not going to make this same mistake again any time soon, however, that's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking what you do when you accidentally do make a mistake and it becomes intense.

Lost, the puppy's aggression increased from the level shown at 12 weeks as he got older despite going through our CGC course, lots of socialisation, and plenty of contact with other dogs. It was quite inexplicable. We couldn't work out why he was just getting worse. The behaviourist didn't have much to offer us, either, despite being quite a good behaviourist that had helped us a lot with our previous dog, who had turned on Penny and tried to kill her.

I don't really think the pinning left much of an impression on him except to maybe teach him that aggression doesn't work on the people he lives with, but I am a bit alarmed when I think about just walking away from him when he decided to give aggression a go. He was not frightened when he chomped my hand multiple times. He was pissed that I wanted to take him away from the interesting power cords and other things lurking behind the couch. He was throwing a tantrum, basically. He was saying "No!" in the most forceful way he could come up with. I just feel like it would be easier to squash that one as soon as it rears its ugly head rather than expecting other dogs to sort him out. Penny kept him well in check until he was big enough to challenge her, which he immediately did, quite viciously. He drew blood with her, despite the fact that she always used inhibited bites with him when he was young. It was for her safety in the end as much as that of anyone who happened to visit that he had to be rehomed. The way that he turned on her makes me wonder if he would have done the same to us when he got enough courage up, just like Ivan might have. He was quite loving and affectionate, but he was his own dog and his willingness to try aggression whenever something didn't all together suit him was troubling. I never had cause to pin him again, and my mother says she only did it once as well. I wonder if our response made a difference. I haven't asked the other people in the family who spent less time with him. I would imagine they'd either back off or push him away if he started carrying on. He never seemed a threat to anyone in the family, but there's no way to say what exactly was behind that and how long it would have lasted. I'm fairly confident pinning him didn't have a negative impact on him, but again, it's hard to say. Maybe it contributed to his aggression. I wasn't living with him, only visiting from time to time, so I'm not sure how it all happened. One moment he was super wary of strangers and my mother was doing some intense training with him and upping his socialisation, and the next moment he'd bitten someone in public who got too far into his comfort zone. Maybe he would have gone that way no matter what we did or didn't do. Or maybe we just didn't have the skill or experience for that particular dog.

snownose

spiritdogs

 

lostcoyote

i have to laugh, sd, cuz dunbars the one recommending the alpha pin and giving it a new name - lol - call it what you want but it is what it is

 

So, would you rather be upended and put on your side forcibly, or would you prefer gentle restraint with a nice massage when you feel more calm?

 

BTW, I really like Kim's approach to the situation.  Prevention is always better than either the pin or the restraint. 

 

Prevention is a big word.......watching her videos ...and I mean, all of them(with all due respect).....scream of dogs out of control....her dogs can do all the little tricks, but when it comes right down to it...her dogs are not trained enough for larger dogs......for larger dogs it wouldn't cut it.....simple......jumping on the handler is out....no matter how one cuts it......

Don't you guys ever get tired of failing to realize that training is all about what is or is not acceptable to the dog's owner - as long as the dogs are not a public nuisance.  Having trained large dogs, and having had clients with large dogs (in fact, that's most of my client base), I can tell you that it is just as easy to train large, or assertive, dogs to have good manners as it is to train Papillons.  It's not about human psychology versus dog psychology either, although people love to throw that around as a smoke screen.  Mammals learn by operant conditioning - all four quadrants.  But, as trainers, some of us choose not to rely very heavily on the +P quadrant.  Dogs that jump up, large or small, are doing it because that behavior has been reinforced.  And, it isn't always the owner who does that - if your DH, your groomer, or someone at the big box pet store does it, it's still intermittent reinforcement.  And, if you have a DH or a dog walker, you aren't always in 100% control of that dog's environment to prevent it.  Large dogs tend not to be reinforced by strangers as much.  And, frankly, many people don't care if their small dogs hop up on a lap now and then.  What is unacceptable to you might be ok for someone else, and just as long as someone's little yapper isn't jumping on people who don't like it, who cares?  The owner is the one who has to live with the dog.  **content removed**  It might be more important for that dog's owner that her dog has a good recall.  Do all your dogs come immediately each and every time you call?  Mine do, because that's what is important to me.  It's about priorities, and your ability to teach your dog what your priorities are.  Granted, no one wants to see a dog be a public nuisance, but if my dog never leaves my home except under my control, and doesn't bother you, what do you care if I'd rather have a recall and someone else is more concerned with their dog not jumping???  Of course, since most of the behavior threads really boil down to who wins, personally, I hope the dogs win.