Puppy pin spin-off - aggressive puppies

corvus

I'm fairly confident pinning him didn't have a negative impact on him, but again, it's hard to say.

From your description, it didn't seem to affect him, pos or neg. In which case, it was merely a hold to reduce damage to you and as a training or conditioning move, it was ineffective, in this one case. I won't generalize it to all cases, just as I wouldn't necessarily use it in all cases to "get my bluff in" about being the superior dog.

I may be the only one here to actually pin and roll a big dog that I wasn't raised with. Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on your perspective, he saw it as mostly play, probably because the previous owners played rough with him and such manhandling was interpreted as affection, a reward, and therefore, ineffective as a punishment. Maybe the next time my dog misbehaves, I'll threaten to not scruff him.

Corvus, I don't think what you did was wrong, nor do I think it affected this pup's subsequent behavior. You reacted to an emergency situation and didn't harm him. Puppies are, or should be, resiliant to minor things. We made a whole lot of minor mistakes with our first puppy (who happens to be half Chow), but because her overall upbringing was good, she readily weathered our learning curve.  I also think returning the pup was the best option. Genuine aggression in puppies is very rare. I personally would not be prepared to dedicate the next 15 years to this guy, while millions of other dogs and puppies were PTS in shelters.

Kim, Thank you for the time and effort you put into a very informative post. Whether or not it applied directly to this particular situation, I learned from your experieces, and am sure many others will find value in your advice.

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spiritdogs......

**content removed, rude**

But, I will agree with you on this one....it's up to the owner how the dogs act...and in a lot of cases as I have seen, it isn't good....

Corvus, it sounds to me like this particular pup had either something really awful happen to him before he came to your home, which sounds unlikely given your description of the situation, OR, he just had something not quite "right" about him.  While none of us can say for sure, having not seen the interaction, I'm guessing, from what you've said that the pin had no impact...either way...on this guy.

lostcoyote

i have to laugh, sd, cuz dunbars the one recommending the alpha pin and giving it a new name - lol - call it what you want but it is what it is

No, it really isn't. An alpha roll, or pinning a dog on the floor to show your dominance in response to unwanted behavior is not the same thing as holding a puppy in your arms as a training exercise to desensitize it to handling and gentle restraint. Laugh all you want, the reason there's a different name is because it's a different thing. This should not be an painful or fearful experience for the puppy, the point is to teach the puppy that handling and restraint can be pleasant.

Dog_ma

I think the amount of force used can be more pleasant or less pleasant, but I don't know what impact position has on a dog's perception. Being held off the ground is not a natural position for a dog.  I am NOT saying Dunbar's method is worse than a side pin. But I don't see why it is intrinsically better.

I think the position does make a difference - to use a human analogy it would be the difference between a hug and being pushed to the floor and held there. And his method does not hold the dog off the ground. You sit on the floor with the puppy in your lap. It's much less forceful that what every dog must submit to in a veterinary exam. There are pictures in his After You Get Your Puppy book.
 

Dog_ma

being restrained against your will is never gentle in the mind of the one being restrained. Its pretty much a violation of will. (I don't think that makes it traumatizing).

Example of human psychology being applied to dogs 

.:.

lostcoyote

corvus: I wasn't living with him, only visiting from time to time, so I'm not sure how it all happened.

then it's not really possible to see the "feller" picture here and determine what contributed to his agression. i suspect it was a lack of leadership and the dog simply took over that role.

That could be, but I think it unlikely. My mother had at that stage successfully raised a number of dogs large and small, including one that was quite dominant and made it her business to teach every dog in the neighbourhood a hard lesson should it unwisely challenge her. That dog never drew blood and never hurt another dog. She was large and confident and intense. My mother treats her dogs like she treats her kids, and you can bet none of us have ever challenged her once she draws the line! She's yet to have any dog believe itself to be above her, and like I said, this little guy adored her and never challenged her, although he quickly took Penny on when he grew large enough to do so. And like I said, he was under a NILIF regime, although we never called it that. There's no doubt he found strangers frightening later in life even though he had been heavily socialised and once he came into our house all socialisation and stranger interaction was supervised and nothing unusual happened. His mum and dad were totally fine with strangers. The behaviourist said his aggression wasn't just fear, but also territorial and dominant. Given he had already judged himself strong enough to take on Penny and had done so with more force than was needed, I find it unlikely that he wouldn't have done the same thing to the people in the house at some point if he had thought from the age of 12 weeks that leadership wasn't strong. If you assume he lumped humans and dogs together, which is possible because he was equally aggressive to both. He wasn't the kind of dog to mess around much.

Thanks Statica. My mother has often wondered if she did the right thing with him by returning him to the breeder to rehome. She was worried he would never adjust to a new home because he tended to get anxious about changes, which brought out the aggression in him. We never heard back about him, so I guess the person she had lined up for him had no major problems. We were baffled about how it all went wrong with him. As far as I know, his upbringing was everything positive training recommends it be. By that stage my mother had struggled with two really tough dogs in a row using traditional training methods and had thoroughly embraced positive training methods and abandoned traditional methods completely. He had been more heavily socialised than any of the dogs that came before him, and was the only one that went through a full course of obedience school. I really think he was just born the way he was and it just got worse as he grew older despite every effort to prevent it. Everything was done by the book with him, and my mother has a veritable library of dog books.

Glenda, I think maybe you're right. Pyry came from the same breeder, but something had happened to him. He was really hand shy. My mother said he behaved similarly to the aggressive puppy at times, but his noise was fear-based. She spent a lot of time building up his confidence and aggression never became an issue with him. It's possible something happened to the other puppy, but instead of getting afraid he got aggressive. Then again, if that were the case I think it would have been easier to overcome the problem once he'd settled in and come to trust people, just like Pyry's problem was easily overcome. Pyry is now full of confidence and very easily handled.

I think the pin had little impact on this puppy, but I suspect that if I'd ever done it to Penny, she would have been terrified. She never did anything to provoke us or other dogs as a puppy, and I wonder if that means doing something like a pin to her would have had a bigger impact.

DPU, I really liked your practical advice. If I'd thought to pull the couch away from the wall, he may well have come out on his own or could have been shooed out without getting him so peeved and giving him an opportunity to express it on my hand.

lostcoyote

sd: So, would you rather be upended and put on your side forcibly, or would you prefer gentle restraint with a nice massage when you feel more calm?

not applicable - your question is based in human psychology - it's not about me at all

My lab went though extensive physical therapy after his surgery, and I can tell you (and most vets will tell you) that massage most certainly has a calming effect.  The only time Jack was close to calm during his crate rest and being wrestled to the ground twice a day was during the massage.

To get him in position for his exercises, we did have to be quite forceful (but careful about the elbow)--it was not gently laying him on his side.  Are you a rodeo fan?  If so, you know when the calf roping event comes up and after roping the calf the cowboy throws it to the ground?  It was kind of like that--but picture three women on a mat trying to do this with a lab--but having to do so while being mindful of the leg.

I can tell you from doing that numerous times that forcing him down did not calm him--he would still struggle or try to shoot up at the first chance.  However, the massage DID calm him.  During that time period the only time he was calm was when he was being massaged and when he was asleep. 

Now that he is able to actually get his energy out like a normal dog I still use massage.  Sometimes if I need to warm his elbow before exercise or ice them after I ask for a down and just quietly rub him and he goes on his side quite easily.  I will never use quick, forceful maneuvers with him again unless a medical situation absolutely forces me to, because they do not calm his--at best they cause him to be tense (not what you want when trying to calm a dog) and at worst they cause him to struggle.  This coming from a dog that is confident, laid back, not dominant, non-confrontational, and has never once behaved aggressively towards any human--no matter what they have done to him. 

snownose

But, I will agree with you on this one....it's up to the owner how the dogs act...and in a lot of cases as I have seen, it isn't good....

"Good" is relative.  We all manage our dogs differently and expect/will tolerate different things.  What's acceptable behavior in another posters house might be considered completely obnoxious in mine.  But, as long as said dog is not hurting himself or becoming a menace to society--rock on.....

corvus

For those that didn't read the alpha roll thread (smart!), the situation I encountered was a 12 week old puppy my mother had that attacked me, snarling and biting, when I tried to pull him out from behind a couch. He didn't want to come. I called and coaxed, but he wanted none of it, so I put my hand in, never expecting such a baby puppy to turn on me. He threw a tantrum of sorts, but quite an aggressive one. At the time, I felt I was instantly on a very slippery slope, because he was trying something new to get me to back off, and if I did back off, he'd learn that aggression and biting got people to back off whenever he wanted them to. I reacted pretty quickly because he was being very noisy and hurting me, and instinct told me to pin him to the ground with a hand between his shoulder blades. I used enough pressure to prevent him from squirming out of my grip, but I don't think I hurt him. He struggled for a few moments, then went still and I let him up.

Back to the OP--I don't think you did anything wrong and probably would have done the same thing in that situation.  Actually, it would have never occurred to me that a pup that young would have reacted in an aggressive manner, so I would have never thought about pulling the couch out or anything--especially with wires involved.  I would have just reached for him too....  

snownose

Prevention is a big word.......watching her videos ...and I mean, all of them(with all due respect).....scream of dogs out of control....her dogs can do all the little tricks, but when it comes right down to it...her dogs are not trained enough for larger dogs......for larger dogs it wouldn't cut it.....simple......jumping on the handler is out....no matter how one cuts it......

Whooo-wee. Thanks for a great laugh Snownose. You really made my day, after a long day at work. :-) My dogs are not one bit out of control! Oh my, I can hardly type I'm still laughing so hard. I'm not sure what videos you are watching, but my dogs are very well controlled, thanks. :-) What is "wrong" for you may not be at all what is wrong for me. Yep, my dogs jump up. Usually only when asked. Some of them we are working on, like any other dog owner would do. Dogs don't come perfect, they learn as life goes on. So I had a 3 MONTH old puppy jumping in excitement. You'll have to sue me on that one, having had the dog for about two weeks at that point. ;-)

I have no idea what videos you are watching, but upon looking at them all none of them at all scream out of control. They scream happy, active, independent dogs. The tug video - perfect control. Gaci's video - don't seem much out of control there. Shimmer's video - same. The dogs outside jumping around (aside from Poker who yes, jumped on me....3 month old puppy who was still learning). I don't care if dogs jump around, they weren't jumping on me. I don't think I have on video on Youtube in which I would say any of the dogs were out of control at all, to be honest! They all act exactly as I wish them to act, and what I reinforce them for doing, so in my mind they are controlling themselves wonderfully.

You're right, they aren't acting as larger dogs would. But I don't have larger dogs. So why do I care if small dogs act as larger dogs? You're right, our Labs didn't do things our Mini's do, and if I got a Dobe in the future it wouldn't either. But again, I don't have large dogs. So why should I care if what I do for little dogs is going to work for larger dogs? When I have a large dog, I'll do what works for large dogs. If I had large dogs I also wouldn't let them on the coffee table, or jumping on the kennels to sleep on top of them, and I wouldn't have five large dogs in bed with me. But I don't have large dogs, so I don't much care what "would" work for large dogs now. I care about what works for the dogs I live with.Talk about finding something to argue about. When you sit down and ask about my interactions with larger dogs, then we'll talk. Until then, I'll stick to working with my little dogs how I wish to work with little dogs, and let the little dogs do whatever I see is fit.

But I would be interested in any example where you claim these "screams". :-)

Note to Ron - remember our discussion about making a movie about everyday life? I'll have to really get on finishing that so people can watch how "out of control" my dogs really are on a day to day basis. Oh yes, they are climbing the curtains and have taken over the couch. In fact they even determine what we watch on television in the evening (ps - they like reality shows, they aren't much for drama). ;-) Please. Y'all really gotta find better ways to spend your time than making up things to try (unsuccessfully) to attack other people.