Puppy pin spin-off - aggressive puppies

corvus

Firstly, I wanted to get the pup out of there because there was a pile of live electrical cords he was looking like he wanted to chomp on.

Very fair, I would have then taken a different M.O at the time as well. If you had have mentioned this in your first post, I would have mentioned it. I was just going on what I had from your writing. :-)

corvus

I was very surprised because he was NOT afraid. He went back there to explore and was merrily poking around the electrical cords. Ears were pricked up and forward. He looked curious and relaxed. When I first touched him, he grumbled, but his head was down as he sniffed around and I couldn't see his facial expression, but the parts of his body I could see didn't change. He was pretty vocal usually, and I didn't pick it up as a serious warning. A moment later it had escalated into something more serious than I'd ever had directed at me by any dog, let alone a wee puppy. I was ill-prepared for it.

Perhaps it wasn't fear, and perhaps rather than say he was fearful of you, I would say that you did something that made him very uncomfortable for some reason, and he told you to stop doing whatever that was. Whether it was fear or not, I would have reacted in a similar manner (not forcing the situation). I almost wonder though if the sniffing was exploratory, or if it was a calming signal he was trying to use? Can you recall, in retrospect?

corvus

Thirdly, in retrospect, I think moving the couch would have been the best thing to do. However, that doesn't help me much in the moment I realise I've made a mistake and have to either meet the physical confrontation with the small puppy or quickly back off. I'm not going to make this same mistake again any time soon, however, that's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking what you do when you accidentally do make a mistake and it becomes intense.

If live wires were involved, then by all means I would have moved the couch too. About what happens when you accidentally do something that becomes intense - you manage the situation as best you know at the time. For me, it would have been to back off of the dog. You did what you knew how at the time, and there is nothing to be ashamed of for that. When emotions run high and adrenaline is flowing, things happen. I didn't mean to imply that you did anything inherently wrong in that case, so my apologies if it seemed that way. I was just expressing how I would have done it, which is what I thought you were asking.

snownose

spiritdogs......it would be really nice if we could see some videos or pics of your work.....

And, I wouldn't mind sharing, but I don't have a video camera. 

Kim......one of your videos displays two dogs in play....you think it's totally cute and funny, what I read is one dog forcing it's way on another dog in a very bad way.....the assertive dog keeps chasing a very young dog.....and you get laughs out of that.....(including where the younger dog runs into the wall)

Also, you said that some of your dogs are allowed to do some funky things like getting on furniture, including tables....and you said your dogs are not disciplined like larger dogs are, also, you said, the jumping is a work in progress....so,which is it.....jumping is trained or it's bad behavior.....so, keep laughing.....

Let's stop getting personal, people.

Or I'll turn this car right around!!  

.:.

You're right, they aren't acting as larger dogs would.

I took a bit of a break and haven't figured out all the buttons yet, so please excuse my fake quotes.

We have three large dogs. At walk time, which is announced by my putting on the shoes that are only worn for walks, Tasha, an eight year old Golden Retriever/Chow mix leaps onto the bed and showers me with kisses, then I lean back and submit to more kisses. As I finally get to tie my shoes, she scampers off and steals my hat or a glove or at least something and does play bows around the house. This happens at least twice daily. To some people this would be unacceptable behavior, but to me it is charming. It never fails to put me in the mood for a walk. There's folks out there (our first trainer is one) who think she should be more disciplined and I should be more assertive, particularly since she's half Chow. But she's eight now, recently through a knee surgery, and if she's going to turn on us it really should be soon. I may soon be coaxed into the belief that she's just a little sweetheart.

We have a neighbor who thought our dogs were sort of out of control because we do stupid things like chase them around the yard which middle aged people aren't supposed to do, particularly with big dogs that may be a little Shepherd, or Chow, or Akita, or Malinois. Never fool with dogs like that.   She'd shown Corgi's  and had also at one point been an animal control officer. We had them over for a BBQ one day and her opinion of us totally changed. All three dogs obeyed the few commands they were given. They weren't pests. At meal time they lie side by side on the floor watching and don't eat until their dish is placed before them and I say "OK". Since then, this woman calls me for advice about nutrition and medical issues.

No matter the size of the dog, it is always up to the guardian to decide what is proper behavior. When poor behavior threatens others, the guardian has made poor choices.

I do believe there are puppies born with problems we can't understand and treat. We have a terribly hard time working with autistic children. If a puppy were autistic or bi-polar, they may be beyond our current scope of understanding.

It is interesting, but I sit with three good dogs on the floor around me. If they went to a shelter (which will never happen)  the two mixed breeds would be killed. The Malinois might make it out. Unfortunately, he's by far the most difficult dog of the three.

You accuse me of not being a clicker follower, well, one better be prepared for how I see things....and many others on this forum.....I don't care how big the animal is, I expect respect, and proper behavior....that's all..........I mean, since comments have been made that smaller dogs are equally tough as large dogs are.....so, give us the proof.......eh....

snownose

You accuse me of not being a clicker follower, well, one better be prepared for how I see things....and many others on this forum.....I don't care how big the animal is, I expect respect, and proper behavior....that's all..........I mean, since comments have been made that smaller dogs are equally tough as large dogs are.....so, give us the proof.......eh....

And where might we access your videos? 

snownose

(including where the younger dog runs into the wall)

Both of my dogs run themselves and each other into the walls during play........doesn't seem to phase them, like, at all....... 

Snownose, I don't know what kind of proof you expect to see because even video of people's dogs is going to show behaviours the owners have reinforced in their dogs either intentionally or otherwise. If you think big dogs are so tough, come over to my place and try expecting respect and proper behaviour from my hare. You can expect all you like, but it won't make a shred of difference until you earn it and until you do that, he'll be climbing the walls trying to keep away from you and be busily forming the impression that you want to eat him. Sometimes you have to come from below nice and gentle and ask nicely for their regard, and I've met small, fearful dogs that have not been so very different to my hare in that respect.

For some reason certain people seem to think I started this thread to give them the chance to snipe and criticise others. Please stop doing this! I asked for opinions and what you would do. I'm not interested in what you think of anyone's dogs except perhaps the aggressive pup in question. Nor am I interested in what you think of the people answering my thread. If you have a legitimate reason why you don't like a method, then let's discuss it like adults without slinging mud at each other, and let's not get personal because this is an internet forum and it's too easy to misinterpret.

Sorry Kim, I should have mentioned the cords at the beginning, but I forgot to. I did indeed ask what you would do and I'm glad to hear the answer. I asked this question because since that puppy I have found myself disliking force more and more and wanted to know if people thought there was a less forceful way if you do accidentally get yourself in trouble. It's been nearly 12 years since I lived with a puppy, so there are some things I want to have figured out before I get one. Should my next puppy (god help me) show a streak of aggression and start snarling at me or chomping on my arm, I'd like to know what my options are. Interestingly to me, as much as I dislike force, the idea of walking away from a puppy that does start biting me for no apparent reason kind of goes against the grain. I'm just trying to figure out whether that's just my personality or what.

It was a few years ago now that this happened, but I've always been under the impression that the puppy was exploring at the time. I couldn't see his face because he had his head down. He was on his feet, just kind of nosing around between the cords, but not moving very much from the one spot. He seemed to be quite intent on whatever he was doing, to me. I've never seen a dog sniffing as a calming signal, I don't think. What does it look like?

snownose

Kim......one of your videos displays two dogs in play....you think it's totally cute and funny, what I read is one dog forcing it's way on another dog in a very bad way.....the assertive dog keeps chasing a very young dog.....and you get laughs out of that.....(including where the younger dog runs into the wall)

See, this is a case of you have no idea what you are talking about. :-) It's too bad one has to make an Appendix for every video. Tequila, the "assertive" dog you describe, is a socially inept girl who never learned how to play well with other dogs. This was a video of her learning how to play. Tikkle, the younger dog that is "being forced upon", taught Tequilah HOW to play bow, how to use body language to signal good intent. Tequilah, if I may say so myself, was amazingly great of a partner for Tikkle. You see forcing herself upon her? Where? When she chases Tikkle? Do you know much of anything about how dogs play? I'm asking genuinely, because that video is a GREAT example of play!

In the hallway, when Tikkle is against the wall? Tequila backs up, lies down, and waits for Tikkle to make the next move. I don't know about you, but that is perfect dog-dog communication for "this is all in fun, see?". Lying down is a HUGE calming signal and play communication, and Tequila (the big bully that she is) executed it perfectly.

When Tequila chases Tikkle? In every instance she backs off if Tikkle stops running. Every. Single. One. She backed up, gave Tikkle space, and waited to see what Tikkle would do. And you know what Tikkle did? Go back for more. Every. Single. Time. If Tikkle was feeling put out, she would not have gone back for more. Have you ever heard of the bully test in playing? When you hold the potential offender back a bit and see what the potential victim does? If a dog goes back for more, it's having fun, not being harassed. If the dog wanders off or doesn't approach, that's when it's time to stop the games. But Tikkle went back for more, every single time. As she was playing, and even more teaching Tequilah HOW to play.

Tequila's play bows, wiggle butt, play barks - all at a distance mind you, not bullying of any sort - all normal play behaviours.

Perhaps you missed where they took turns in chasing. But then again you had a preconceived bias to what you were looking at, with no knowledge whatsoever of the situation. Not that I have any need to defend my videos, because I don't, I understand canine communication and body language very well, but it's just an example to show how wrong some people can be. That assertive dog was not assertive at all. It was a dog lacking play skills who was learning how to develop them. That's it.

snownose

Also, you said that some of your dogs are allowed to do some funky things like getting on furniture, including tables....

And your point is? I have no problem with them getting on some tables. Just like they are not allowed on some other tables. They are allowed to do it. You know the good thing though? They'll get off if asked. So if I have no problem, what is your problem? Or why are you trying to create one? They wouldn't go to another person's home and jump all over their things, so what business is it of yours what our family allows in our own home?

snownose

you said your dogs are not disciplined like larger dogs are,

No, I didn't say they aren't disciplined like large dogs are. The type of "discipline" I use, when used sparingly - redirecting, ignoring, P-, management, I would use for all dogs, big or small. What I said was that I allow them to do things that I wouldn't allow a larger dog to do. Huge difference there, try not to get too confused.

snownose

you said, the jumping is a work in progress....so,which is it.....jumping is trained or it's bad behavior.....

Which is it? It's both, depending on the dog. For Poker, it is a work in progress, as he came to the home very in-your-face jumpy. For other dogs, like Shimmer or Gaci, they have been taught when it's okay to jump up, with the cues "Hugs" "Gimme hugs" or "Jump!". For other dogs they neither jump up, or have been taught to jump up on cue. They don't care much for jumping so I didn't bother teaching it. Gaci and Shimmer find jumping highly reinforcing, so I used it to my advantage as a reward for good behaviour.

snownose

so, keep laughing.....

I will, don't worry. Laughter is the best medicine (dogs find it quite fun too!), and besides, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about in this instance.

corvus

It was a few years ago now that this happened, but I've always been under the impression that the puppy was exploring at the time. I couldn't see his face because he had his head down. He was on his feet, just kind of nosing around between the cords, but not moving very much from the one spot. He seemed to be quite intent on whatever he was doing, to me. I've never seen a dog sniffing as a calming signal, I don't think. What does it look like?

If I could be honest. The way you describe it does sound like a calming signal. It's hard to describe without having full contextual information, to tell whether or not the dog is sniffing to "sniff" or sniffing as a calming signal. You mention he wasn't moving much from one spot, but had his head down apparently nosing around. It sounds to me what might be a calming signal. I can't say for sure, though, since I wasn't there and it happened so long ago it would be hard for you to remember details too. :-)

Most people have no idea that sniffing IS a calming signal, or that other things are calming signals as well. To people unaware of calming signals, it would look like simple sniffing, perhaps even aimless sniffing. It's very contextual, because sometimes sniffing IS just sniffing, and sometimes it's more than that. ;-) It's hard to explain, and I have to head to work right now, but if you're interested in learning more about calming signals (as it is a huge benefit, IMO, for everybody who wants to learn to better understand dogs), we can perhaps start a new discussion on it. :-)

Kim_MacMillan

See, this is a case of you have no idea what you are talking about. :-) It's too bad one has to make an Appendix for every video. Tequila, the "assertive" dog you describe, is a socially inept girl who never learned how to play well with other dogs. This was a video of her learning how to play. Tikkle, the younger dog that is "being forced upon", taught Tequilah HOW to play bow, how to use body language to signal good intent. Tequilah, if I may say so myself, was amazingly great of a partner for Tikkle. You see forcing herself upon her? Where? When she chases Tikkle? Do you know much of anything about how dogs play? I'm asking genuinely, because that video is a GREAT example of play!

Say what you will, I wasn't the only person on this board who viewed it the way I did......and yes, I know how dogs play....I see it every day.....but, it's not carried it out in the harrassing fashion as your older dog picking on the younger......

Kim_MacMillan

And your point is? I have no problem with them getting on some tables. Just like they are not allowed on some other tables. They are allowed to do it. You know the good thing though? They'll get off if asked. So if I have no problem, what is your problem? Or why are you trying to create one? They wouldn't go to another person's home and jump all over their things, so what business is it of yours what our family allows in our own home?

Of course, you are absolutely right.....what goes on in your house, **content removed**, is your business, and your business alone......and I shouldn't even think about it **content removed**

silverserpher

snownose

You accuse me of not being a clicker follower, well, one better be prepared for how I see things....and many others on this forum.....I don't care how big the animal is, I expect respect, and proper behavior....that's all..........I mean, since comments have been made that smaller dogs are equally tough as large dogs are.....so, give us the proof.......eh....

 

And where might we access your videos? 

I have posted a video before, I always post pictures, also......where are you with your pics.....I can't even tell if you own any animals....there are no pics, no profile, no avatar, no sig pic.....

Corvus, what might be helpful with a pup is to let him/her drag a line.  When I have pups, they come in litters and whatever piece of floor is nearest to me is the most valuable real estate in the house.  I am always surrounded and pups tend not to wander off because that would mean giving up their place close to me......What I'm saying is that I don't have any recent experience with a single pup to pull from.  But, so many folks here do suggest letting pups drag a line.  Its something to keep in mind.

Excuse me for going  OT, but, perhaps all these folks wanting to see Anne's videos will pitch in and buy her a camera?